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Dion Waiters Traded

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Grade the Trade (Waiters + Kirk/Amundsen + 2nd rd pick for Smith, Shumpert, and 1st rd pick)

  • A+

    Votes: 18 7.1%
  • A

    Votes: 68 26.7%
  • B

    Votes: 106 41.6%
  • C

    Votes: 44 17.3%
  • D

    Votes: 10 3.9%
  • F

    Votes: 9 3.5%

  • Total voters
    255
  • Poll closed .
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Dion's playing time varied from game to game before Kyrie got hurt. Just a couple weeks ago he saw 14 and then 18 minutes back to back. What the hell? You can't coach people like that.

Apparently you can. In fact, young players are coached like that all the damn time. Minutes are a reward for playing the way a coach wants you to play and behaving like a professional. A player isn't entitled to minutes just because of his talent. You can't award a guy who is causing problems in practice, even to the point of getting kicked out, with a consistent 30mpg. Brown would just be enabling bad habits. You need to teach him, and using minutes is one of the few tools an NBA coach has when guys have huge contracts and egos and a bunch of enablers.

The returns are still early, but it looks like Dion came out the other side a better and more mature player. Hopefully the trend continues.
 
Again, do you read the board and listen to what some of the insiders have said on this topic. You are making so many assumptions that you have no way of backing them up. The argument has been made, is that MB was making Dion earn his mins, if he had a bad practice, did not give effort, then he did not get mins. Stop comparing how MB handles Dion and Jack, they are two different players and are in different points of their career. The idea that all should be created equal is BS, in a sport where the players are making million of $. How can you argue with MB approach, after seeing what Dion is doing now. Instead of second guessing, enjoy what Dion is doing now, and the growth he has had over the year. There is no possable way to argue or prove that Dion would be the player he is now, had he been given more mins throughout the year.

If you want to debate something then that's fine but don't speak to me in a condescending voice as if I'm your son or some shit.

In response to your post, what assumptions did I make? I said, "Dion's playing time varied from game to game before Kyrie got hurt." That's a fact, not an assumption. I even copied and pasted the game logs to prove my point.

Furthermore, I know all about how Mike Brown "broke in Dion" and made him "earn his minutes" and I still don't like it. You don't do that type of thing to a young player, especially not a player as important to our team's future as Dion. If you want to show tough love and make players earn their time, then fine. That's cool and could be effective so long as you hold all players accountable. However, Mike Brown was noticeably harsher on Dion to the point that it fractured team chemistry and almost resulted in Dion being shipped out of town for way less value in return. I mean honestly, we were considering trading Dion earlier in the year for Iman Shumpert. Iman Shumpert! Yet you still give this man so much credit.

Also, the argument that just because these guys are making money they should just go out and play regardless of circumstance is lazy. It doesn't hold true in the least. Above all else these guys are human beings. They can only take so much shit before they reach their boiling point and Dion reached his when he saw Kyrie and others not get punished for the same mistakes he'd get reprimanded for. That isn't how you coach a team, as evidenced by the early/mid-season fractures in our locker room.

Lastly, I argue with Mike Brown's approach because I don't attribute Dion's improved play of late to Mike Brown's tough love approach. I attribute it to Mike Brown showing more faith in Dion and giving him the time he should've been getting all year. The fact that you're attributing so much of Dion's growth to Mike Brown is laughable. Did he have a hand in it? Sure. But Dion's improved play has a lot more to do with increased playing time, increased role, and his own hard work. Dion has grown throughout the year, no doubt. But he was able to have this much impact on games earlier in the year. He just wasn't given enough time or responsibility.

Props to Mike Brown for finally showing faith in him. Better late than never I guess.
 
Again, do you read the board and listen to what some of the insiders have said on this topic. You are making so many assumptions that you have no way of backing them up. The argument has been made, is that MB was making Dion earn his mins, if he had a bad practice, did not give effort, then he did not get mins. Stop comparing how MB handles Dion and Jack, they are two different players and are in different points of their career.

The problem is that this same system of court time allotment was not used fairly. Even if you say Jack is automatically deserving of more minutes because he's a veteran, even though he played horrendously throughout the year, then what's the argument for Irving not getting his minutes reduced and Dion being subbed in for him when Irving would simply refuse to play defense?

I don't think Mike Brown's handling of Dion is easily defensible, and many people on this board have said Dion should remain as a 6th man. While I respect that opinion, I don't think Dion would agree, nor does his play seem to suggest that he's best suited coming off the bench.

The idea that all should be created equal is BS, in a sport where the players are making million of $. How can you argue with MB approach, after seeing what Dion is doing now.

Logically, Dion is being given minutes only because Mike Brown literally ran out of players to put in the lineup. Had Irving not been injured or if we had a single healthy veteran guard to play, Dion would still likely be coming off the bench.

So again, logically, you can say that Dion's current play is a demonstration that he has been underutilized by Mike Brown and shoehorned into a 6th man role that he neither wants to or needs to fill.

Instead of second guessing, enjoy what Dion is doing now, and the growth he has had over the year. There is no possable way to argue or prove that Dion would be the player he is now, had he been given more mins throughout the year.

I think the point of the forum is to offer our opinions.
 
The fact that Dion averages only 1 more mpg than Jack is a big problem in itself. Dion should've been playing just as many minutes as Kyrie but he wasn't and that is on Mike Brown. Just because we're winning now with Dion leading the way doesn't mean I've forgotten. I'm confident that had we never played with Dion's minutes throughout the entire year we'd be sitting pretty with the 8th seed right now, maybe better.

Also the bolded is false.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/6628/dion-waiters
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/2768/jarrett-jack

Jarrett Jack regularly received more playing time than Dion Waiters did. Dion's playing time varied from game to game before Kyrie got hurt. Just a couple weeks ago he saw 14 and then 18 minutes back to back. What the hell? You can't coach people like that. Mike Brown's rotations vary depending on what type of day he's having. He just does whatever he feels like at the expense of the players. You can't play well when you don't know your role or even when you don't know when you'll see the court. All the flack he gets is well deserved.

#NeverForget :chuckles:

You're absolutely right about the minutes. Most troublesome by far was Knicks game at home on Big "Z" night. Dion with the fire power he has only played 13mins that game. Result: Big Fat Loss. 10-13 min Dion is NEVER a good thing for this team. Period. The link you put up is a good one. There is a definite pattern to be seen with pts vs Dion's minutes. Stats is stats.
 
Apparently you can. In fact, young players are coached like that all the damn time. Minutes are a reward for playing the way a coach wants you to play and behaving like a professional. A player isn't entitled to minutes just because of his talent. You can't award a guy who is causing problems in practice, even to the point of getting kicked out, with a consistent 30mpg. Brown would just be enabling bad habits. You need to teach him, and using minutes is one of the few tools an NBA coach has when guys have huge contracts and egos and a bunch of enablers.

The returns are still early, but it looks like Dion came out the other side a better and more mature player. Hopefully the trend continues.

Then why is Kyrie seeing 34 mpg on the season? He typically loafs around on defense, takes bad shots, doesn't always show maximum effort, and commits silly turnovers yet his minutes are guaranteed each and every night.

Dion saw the double standard and started lashing out, not the other way around. Had Mike Brown simply held all players accountable (like he said he was going to before the season started) this NBA year would've gone so differently. We'd be in a much better situation than we are in now because we would've avoided all the locker room problems that we've had to deal with.

I don't have a problem with Mike Brown awarding minutes to guys whom are deserving. That's a fine approach. I do have a problem however with the double standard I saw in how he treated Dion, Zeller, and Bennett from seemingly every other guy on the roster. That's not how you coach a team. You see where this led us.
 
The only reason why Brown is giving Dion the mins is because he's forced to with Kyrie and CJ out. If Dion played bad early in the game, like the recent 0-8 to start game, he would have been on the bench in the 2nd half and we wouldn't have seen him finished 6-10. The idea that Brown's coaching got to him is laughable. Dion is a streaky player. Give him the mins and he will perform. Play him 14-18mins because of slow start then you are limiting his game. I have no doubt that Brown will put Dion back in the cage once Kryie is fully healthy.
 
Dion getting the start tonight alongside Kyrie. I really hope they come out and dominate together. Dion's future here is as a starter...either that or he has no future here. It means something to him...if you're gonna play him and Kyrie together most of the time anyway, start the kid FFS.

I want to be very clear my stance on this issue: Dion Waiters can ball off the bench or starting. If it doesn't affect the team negatively, why not let the #4 pick in the draft start if it really means something to him?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Looking forward to that dynamic starting back court 2nite.Could this be the start of something very special?Lets hope so.Big game for <a href="https://twitter.com/cavs">@cavs</a>!</p>&mdash; Dan Gilbert (@cavsdan) <a href="https://twitter.com/cavsdan/statuses/451479402086289408">April 2, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
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If you dont' think Waiters "earned" his minutes, how the hell can you argue that Jack "earned" them? Perfectly ok to sabotage actual real games if you can kiss ass in practice using this logic.

Brown if he wanted to break in Waiters and still try to win games, would have dramatically increased the minutes to Miles at SF when he was healthy and just play Delly more. This was obvious from very early in the season and before anybody pulls any hindsight is 20/20 crap, posters have consistently shown that lineups with Delly, Dion, and Miles in them consistently do better for a huge chunk of this season BEFORE any injuries occurred to force his hand. The crap that Mike Brown can get away with is amazing in this forum. It's like no coach has ever had to deal with difficult to manage personalities: that is the job.
 
Then why is Kyrie seeing 34 mpg on the season? He typically loafs around on defense, takes bad shots, doesn't always show maximum effort, and commits silly turnovers yet his minutes are guaranteed each and every night.

A number of reasons. Kyrie has been in the league longer. Kyrie is a much better player. Kyrie doesn't take as many bad shots. And perhaps most importantly, Kyrie didn't act like a jackass in practice and get into it with assistant coaches (as far as we know). And again, Kyrie is a much better player. With that said, even Kyrie has been benched on occasion when he isn't playing within a team concept or giving effort on defense. Kyrie has said he's been held more accountable this year than in years past.

Trying to hold every player to the same standard is impossible. You can't pull every player any time they make a few mistakes, otherwise there will just be chaos. Bennett, Zeller and Dion are 1st and 2nd year players. They aren't going to be afforded the same leeway that more veteran players get because they are still learning and forming habits. Pulling Jack after a bad pull-up 2 isn't going to change who he is at this point in his career.
 
Dion definitely earned his starting role back. He's went above and beyond my expectations in terms of leadership and play.
 
Dion earned is starting role as soon as andrew bynum left the team.
 
A number of reasons. Kyrie has been in the league longer. Kyrie is a much better player. Kyrie doesn't take as many bad shots. And perhaps most importantly, Kyrie didn't act like a jackass in practice and get into it with assistant coaches (as far as we know). And again, Kyrie is a much better player. With that said, even Kyrie has been benched on occasion when he isn't playing within a team concept or giving effort on defense. Kyrie has said he's been held more accountable this year than in years past.

Trying to hold every player to the same standard is impossible. You can't pull every player any time they make a few mistakes, otherwise there will just be chaos. Bennett, Zeller and Dion are 1st and 2nd year players. They aren't going to be afforded the same leeway that more veteran players get because they are still learning and forming habits. Pulling Jack after a bad pull-up 2 isn't going to change who he is at this point in his career.

Right. KI is one year longer in this than Dion... He still needs a lot of molding. But it seems we are taking the kissass approach to our star player yet again. This approach is not fair and is confusing. Some players are required to play smart, try hard on defense and some just do what they want. Great coaching.
 
One play in particular in the first half got me crazy excited. Dion was on the wing/near the corner, used his dribble to get a step on his defender and shift the defense towards him, jumped up and rifled a skip pass to Kyrie on the other wing, and you could almost see Kyrie's jaw drop when he caught the ball and saw driving lanes all over the place due to Dion's attack from the other side of the court.

THAT is what I imagined when we drafted two shot creators. Kyrie waltzed inside and either made the layup or got hacked. This duo has limitless potential.

Both played extremely efficient games tonight and we blew a team out in their building. The Magic are basically .500 at home this season...I'll take it, gladly.
 
^ I agree. I think Kyrie's injury is the best possible thing that could have happened for Dion, and this franchise going forward. Potentially we have one of the most dominant backcourts in the league going forward. I am so looking forward to the final six games, especially watching how these two do in closer battles together.
 
One play in particular in the first half got me crazy excited. Dion was on the wing/near the corner, used his dribble to get a step on his defender and shift the defense towards him, jumped up and rifled a skip pass to Kyrie on the other wing, and you could almost see Kyrie's jaw drop when he caught the ball and saw driving lanes all over the place due to Dion's attack from the other side of the court.

THAT is what I imagined when we drafted two shot creators. Kyrie waltzed inside and either made the layup or got hacked. This duo has limitless potential.

Both played extremely efficient games tonight and we blew a team out in their building. The Magic are basically .500 at home this season...I'll take it, gladly.
That play was sexy.
 
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