Game 68 | Miami @ Cleveland | Tuesday March 18, 2014 7:00 PM ET

[BimboColesHair]

I'll challenge that. I can name a list of guys who looked pretty average to this point in their careers and exploded later. DeMarr DeRozan and James Harden come to mind immediately.

Chauncey Billups, Gary Peyton, Jeff Hornacek...I can also go on. Again, I can't believe someone thinks a 22 year old "is what he is".

 

[Shep]

Ok. If you don't want to ignore anything, then let's look at their career averages.

Dion: 41.8% FG, 34.0% 3FG
Kyrie: 44.7% FG, 38.3% 3FG

Yes?

 

[MoGottiFor3]

Damnit

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[Shep]

But the comparison was between Waiters and Kyrie.

Kyrie plays almost all of his minutes against starting guards, while Dion maybe plays half of his minutes against starting guards. Look, I love Dion, but to make out that he is somehow more important to the team than Kyrie is just not factual.

 

[BimboColesHair]

Ok. If you don't want to ignore anything, then let's look at their career averages.

Dion: 41.8% FG, 34.0% 3FG
Kyrie: 44.7% FG, 38.3% 3FG

Yes?

So he says something about Dion's shooting THIS YEAR compared to Kyrie's and you post career stats? Clearly you are winning this argument.

 

[Shep]

So he says something about Dion's shooting THIS YEAR compared to Kyrie's and you post career stats? Clearly you are winning this argument.

Haha! Ok... so me talking about the second half of the season doesn't work because it ignores the first half. But going back a year is no good because that's stretching too far.

Look, if you think Dion Waiters is a better shooter than Kyrie Irving, fine. I do not.

 

[Cashius X]

But the comparison was between Waiters and Kyrie.

Kyrie plays almost all of his minutes against starting guards, while Dion maybe plays half of his minutes against starting guards. Look, I love Dion, but to make out that he is somehow more important to the team than Kyrie is just not factual.

Who said he's more important than Kyrie? Not me. If we want to be successful though they'll both be equally important to our team imo.

I just asked a simple question. Why is Dion considered inefficient and Kyrie isn't even though Kyrie is shooting just .04% better from the field? To say Dion plays against lesser competition is not only false but lazy.

 

[BimboColesHair]

Haha! Ok... so me talking about the second half of the season doesn't work because it ignores the first half. But going back a year is no good because that's stretching too far.

Look, if you think Dion Waiters is a better shooter than Kyrie Irving, fine. I do not.

I never said that, just like Jermaine Ali never said Dion has shot better over his career than Kyrie, or is a better player. Both of those things have nothing to do with what he brought up and that you are trying to argue about with him.

 

[Cashius X]

Haha! Ok... so me talking about the second half of the season doesn't work because it ignores the first half. But going back a year is no good because that's stretching too far.

Look, if you think Dion Waiters is a better shooter than Kyrie Irving, fine. I do not.

You're putting words in my mouth.

I'm done.

 

[BimboColesHair]

You're putting words in my mouth.

I'm done.

Which is why I am jumping in.

 

[Shep]

I never said that, just like Jermaine Ali never said Dion has shot better over his career than Kyrie, or is a better player. Both of those things have nothing to do with what he brought up and that you are trying to argue about with him.

Ok. Then at least we agree Kyrie is a better shooter. Every advanced metric relating to player efficiency far and away favours Irving.

Should Kyrie and Dion be starting together? Absolutely.

Is Mike Brown fucking clueless? Probably.

MB thinks that starting Jack somehow takes pressure off Irving because he doesn't have to bring the ball up all of the time, but in reality it adds pressure because nobody has to guard Jack. It's too bad we have run out of time this season, because a starting 5 of Kyrie, Dion, Deng, AV and Hawes looks like a top 5 EC lineup.

 

[I'mWithDan]

I'll challenge that. I can name a list of guys who looked pretty average to this point in their careers and exploded later. DeMarr DeRozan and James Harden come to mind immediately.

So Dion is sharing shots and minutes with two other All-Star players? Just look at the usage numbers of both guys in years one and two.

Even so, Harden's advanced stats crush Dion's. He was also a year younger. In year two, his TS% is 10% higher and his EFG 5%. That's not even taking in to account the massive jump he made in year 3, after already being WAY ahead of Dion at a younger age.

Is DeMarr DeRozan even worth comparing? They're two completely different players. He's also 6'7" and a better athlete. If Dion possessed his non teachables, I'd be far more patient with him. Instead he's an undersized 2 guard who can't shoot or finish.

DeRozan was a far better finisher early in his career (60+). He also was markedly better at getting to the line. That's Dion's biggest issue at this point.... he sucks at finishing at the rim and he seemingly can't draw fouls. Given he's a sub par jump shooter, it causes his efficiency numbers to absolutely plummet. Unless he's going to grow or become a better athlete as he ages, I don't see that marker moving at all.

I think Dion can get better but the guy is far more limited than anyone will lead you to believe around here.

 

[Cashius X]

So Dion is sharing shots and minutes with two other All-Star players? Just look at the usage numbers of both guys in years one and two.

Even so, Harden's advanced stats crush Dion's. He was also a year younger. In year two, his TS% is 10% higher and his EFG 5%. That's not even taking in to account the massive jump he made in year 3, after already being WAY ahead of Dion at a younger age.

Is DeMarr DeRozan even worth comparing? They're two completely different players. He's also 6'7" and a better athlete. If Dion possessed his non teachables, I'd be far more patient with him. Instead he's an undersized 2 guard who can't shoot or finish.

DeRozan was a far better finisher early in his career (60+). He also was markedly better at getting to the line. That's Dion's biggest issue at this point.... he sucks at finishing at the rim and he seemingly can't draw fouls. Given he's a sub par jump shooter, it causes his efficiency numbers to absolutely plummet. Unless he's going to grow or become a better athlete as he ages, I don't see that marker moving at all.

I think Dion can get better but the guy is far more limited than anyone ever lead you to believe around here.

Listen. All this is irrelevant. Dion is in a totally different situation than these guys. Regardless is it such a crime to think that Dion is on pace to develop into an all-star SG? I mean if anyone would know, it would be us Cavalier fans who watch hisevery game, right? We see the holes in his game, but we also see his insane work ethic and the other areas of game which are already elite. He can be really good. He has all the tools. Whether he reaches said potential is anyone's guess, although I'd take that bet.

Furthermore, for you to say Dion can't shoot is just false. His 3 Point % on the year is very respectable, and I even remember seeing a chart that labeled him as one of the best mid-range jump shooters in the entire league. If you're going to make a rational arguement by all means go ahead. But don't spew your biased opinion like it's fact to strengthen your argument.

 

[Rich]

So Dion is sharing shots and minutes with two other All-Star players? Just look at the usage numbers of both guys in years one and two.

Even so, Harden's advanced stats crush Dion's. He was also a year younger. In year two, his TS% is 10% higher and his EFG 5%. That's not even taking in to account the massive jump he made in year 3, after already being WAY ahead of Dion at a younger age.

Is DeMarr DeRozan even worth comparing? They're two completely different players. He's also 6'7" and a better athlete. If Dion possessed his non teachables, I'd be far more patient with him. Instead he's an undersized 2 guard who can't shoot or finish.

DeRozan was a far better finisher early in his career (60+). He also was markedly better at getting to the line. That's Dion's biggest issue at this point.... he sucks at finishing at the rim and he seemingly can't draw fouls. Given he's a sub par jump shooter, it causes his efficiency numbers to absolutely plummet. Unless he's going to grow or become a better athlete as he ages, I don't see that marker moving at all.

I think Dion can get better but the guy is far more limited than anyone will lead you to believe around here.

Hey brother, this was your quote "People reference his age but perimeter players don't have a history of developing slowly or struggling early in their careers at the NBA level."

You didn't throw in a ton of qualifiers like "except guys playing with other all-stars or guys who are alot taller or more athletic." You said perimeter (notice not even shooting guard). That's just wrong.

Throw Lance Stephenson in there as well.

EDIT: And btw, Dion is sharing minutes with two all-star players.

 

[I'mWithDan]

Hey brother, this was your quote "People reference his age but perimeter players don't have a history of developing slowly or struggling early in their careers at the NBA level."

You didn't throw in a ton of qualifiers like "except guys playing with other all-stars or guys who are alot taller or more athletic." You said perimeter (notice not even shooting guard). That's just wrong.

Throw Lance Stephenson in there as well.

Sure....lets throw out any stats like usage or per 36 so we can't even begin to compare why guys might not have been producing.

I noticed you clipped off my comments about minute markers and shot attempts.

And Lance Stephenson? You do realize you're throwing out guys that aren't helping your argument.

All it is doing is reaffirming my position that guys who end up being difference makers do not start this slowly.

The guys you're listing are above average players who Dion doesn't even compare favorably to at this point.

DeRozen might even be a decent comp. A guy who needs 18 shots and 38 minutes a game to score 20 points. That's exactly what Dion is. If he's the second best player on your team, you're going nowhere fast.