gun control

[The Process God]

This shooting is beyond heinous, but the reality is that crime will always exist, and, if we have tighter gun control, the gun control will only be tighter for those who follow legal gun acquisition protocols. We've seen the statistics of how illegally acquired guns make up almost all guns-related crimes. Those who wish to acquire a gun will always be able to do so. But that's not even why I would argue against gun control.

It's easy to have a knee-jerk reaction to this situation such as crying out for more gun control. However, the fact of the matter is that we should not intrude upon the rights of individuals for the sake of safety no matter what. Infringing upon life, liberty, and property of individuals so that we can stop others from infringing upon life, liberty, and property of individuals? As they say, "they who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." This country fought for its independence from people such as the Brits who wished to control every aspect of our lives so that we could live as free men and women who could live on the essentials of life, liberty, and property for everyone, yet we have slowly started becoming what we once loathed. We are that frog that has been slowly boiled alive in a pot of boiling water because we can't detect the slow changes in temperature over time. Life isn't the only thing to value. Freedom is of just as much value. It's easy to give up freedoms when you don't care to pursue those freedoms, but, to some others, it's what makes up their life.

Punish the guilty, but let the innocent live their lives freely. It is better to let a guilty man go free than it is to punish an innocent man. Don't punish innocent individuals through immoral coercion.

Regardless of whether or not gun control works (it doesn't and in many cases puts a higher percentage of guns into the wrong hands and less into the right hands), it is immoral to employ such a coercive bane upon society.

 

[Otsego Mar]

^^ Intelligence at its finest, folks.

 

[Man Called X]

You know it's funny, the vast majority of people I see that fight for gun ownership rights tend to be ones that have never served in any armed services. I know very few if any one that I served with that is ready to spout off all the statistics about the safety of gun owners etc. But a whole lot of wannabe militiamen with more guns than sense will be happy to tell you every statistic they can come up with.

What does that say? Probably nothing.

I also tend to believe that anyone that is so gung-ho for weaponry probably is more mentally disturbed than I am.

 

[caf]

Fire extinguishers, firearms.

They're almost the same thing.

In fact, if they take guns away...there might be an outbreak of fire-extinguisher related homicides. Because if people want to kill you, they will.

It's an analogy. Analogies, by definition, are similar in certain ways that a comparison can be drawn from. They are not literal. In the case of this analogy both are items that can be used in life or death situations that rarely occur. Both are items that I would rather have and not need, than need and not have. I think it's a pretty strong analogy.

However, the analogy is a pretty logical counter point to your argument... so in classic bOObie fashion you dismiss it as blasphemy in an extremely rude, ignorant, and dickish manner. That's routinely your modus operandi when someone brings up a counter argument you can't defend. So I'll take your post as a compliment and confirmation that my argument has legs. Thank you.

 

[Otsego Mar]

You know it's funny, the vast majority of people I see that fight for gun ownership rights tend to be ones that have never served in any armed services. I know very few if any one that I served with that is ready to spout off all the statistics about the safety of gun owners etc. But a whole lot of wannabe militiamen with more guns than sense will be happy to tell you every statistic they can come up with.

What does that say? Probably nothing.

I also tend to believe that anyone that is so gung-ho for weaponry probably is more mentally disturbed than I am.

What the fuck do you know? :chuckles:

Dude...I'm a normal dude. No, I've never served my country and quite frankly I wouldn't want to. But I sure do appreciate those that do serve. I have no military training and I don't need any to be able to protect myself with a gun (I'm very proficient at it's use). I get it...guns can bring quick carnage to the table. But they can also prevent it.

At this point in my life...I'm going to mind my own business and continue to be armed. Leave me alone and there are no problems.

 

[Man Called X]

What the fuck do you know? :chuckles:

Dude...I'm a normal dude. No, I've never served my country and quite frankly I wouldn't want to. But I sure do appreciate those that do serve. I have no military training and I don't need any to be able to protect myself with a gun (I'm very proficient at it's use). I get it...guns can bring quick carnage to the table. But they can also prevent it.

At this point in my life...I'm going to mind my own business and continue to be armed. Leave me alone and there are no problems.

My point behind my comment, you get paid to kill, your outlook changes a bit. The ones that are the most vocal about protecting and killing with their gun, are the ones who've never had to do it. I did own guns, and did have my CCW. I voluntarily gave them up.

I did feel safer having a gun in my home. Doesn't mean I don't feel safe without it though.

I just wish more people would quit pretending they will become a superhero because they have a CCW. And it's that exact type of attitude that your argument seems to be based on. Nothing more and nothing less.

 

[AZ_]

It's an analogy. Analogies, by definition, are similar in certain ways that a comparison can be drawn from. They are not literal. In the case of this analogy both are items that can be used in life or death situations that rarely occur. Both are items that I would rather have and not need, than need and not have. I think it's a pretty strong analogy.

However, the analogy is a pretty logical counter point to your argument... so in classic bOObie fashion you dismiss it as blasphemy in an extremely rude, ignorant, and dickish manner. That's routinely your modus operandi when someone brings up a counter argument you can't defend. So I'll take your post as a compliment and confirmation that my argument has legs. Thank you.

When the analogy is comparing apples to bowling balls, I reserve the right to use sarcasm to deflect from it's utter absurdity.

We're not going to want to ban fire extinguishers because they prevent danger and do no harm to the public at large.

On the other hand, thousands of people per year are affected by gun violence. People asking to bring more guns into the frey with less stringent concealed and carry laws seem to ignore the damage it does as a trade off to those situations it may "potentially" save.

Needless to say, don't expect me to take this moronic analogy seriously...when you're trying to compare fire prevention to the thousands of people who die by way of firearms.

 

[Tornicade]

You know it's funny, the vast majority of people I see that fight for gun ownership rights tend to be ones that have never served in any armed services. I know very few if any one that I served with that is ready to spout off all the statistics about the safety of gun owners etc. But a whole lot of wannabe militiamen with more guns than sense will be happy to tell you every statistic they can come up with.

What does that say? Probably nothing.

I also tend to believe that anyone that is so gung-ho for weaponry probably is more mentally disturbed than I am.

tell that to the 110 thousand vets who have tried but cant buy guns because the government has appointed them a fiduciary to manage their disability pay

 

[Otsego Mar]

My point behind my comment, you get paid to kill, your outlook changes a bit. The ones that are the most vocal about protecting and killing with their gun, are the ones who've never had to do it. I did own guns, and did have my CCW. I voluntarily gave them up.

I did feel safer having a gun in my home. Doesn't mean I don't feel safe without it though.

I just wish more people would quit pretending they will become a superhero because they have a CCW. And it's that exact type of attitude that your argument seems to be based on. Nothing more and nothing less.

I agree with everything except this. Having a weapon doesn't make you invincible. I'm here to tell you that isn't my MO, regardless of whether or not you believe it is based on what I've said or what you think I've implied. I'm here to tell you, I know.

If disarming yourself is your best option, more power to you. You should have that opportunity.

 

[Otsego Mar]

When the analogy is comparing apples to bowling balls, I reserve the right to use sarcasm to deflect from it's utter absurdity.

We're not going to want to ban fire extinguishers because they prevent danger and do no harm to the public at large.

On the other hand, thousands of people per year are affected by gun violence. People asking to bring more guns into the frey with less stringent concealed and carry laws seem to ignore the damage it does as a trade off to those situations it may "potentially" save.

Needless to say, don't expect me to take this moronic analogy seriously...when you're trying to compare fire prevention to the thousands of people who die by way of firearms.

Concealed carry laws, and any laws, will NEVER stop criminals from doing what they want. That is plain moronic. The PENALTY for such crimes will aid in the FEAR of committing such crimes.

Hundreds of thousands of people die from alcohol related deaths in this country....why aren't we doing anything about this? We get it, you don't like analogies because you can't focus on the issue at hand. That analogy is meant to help people comprehend...it's not math.

 

[AZ_]

Concealed carry laws, and any laws, will NEVER stop criminals from doing what they want. That is plain moronic.

This logic is faulty, simply because of the fact guns make it far easier than most other practical weapons. In addition, the pretending that more stringent gun laws won't prevent the amount of guns flowing through the nation is absurd. Not everyone has the means or the connections to attain them on the "black market" or with the ease of which you can get them right now. And this is just guns, Ammo is even more easily attainable.

The PENALTY for such crimes will aid in the FEAR of committing such crimes.

Wholeheartedly agree.

Hundreds of thousands of people die from alcohol related deaths in this country....why aren't we doing anything about this?

We are, this country is spending more than they ever have before on things like prevention, anti-drunk driving campaigns and education on the detractors to alcohol and drugs.

 

[caf]

We are, this country is spending more than they ever have before on things like prevention, anti-drunk driving campaigns and education on the detractors to alcohol and drugs.

I would whole heartedly support programs that would attempt to teach our youth the dangers of gun abuse. Illustrating how quickly situations can escalate when people get into pissing contest with weapons. Teach it along with proper use and safety in our class rooms similar to how alcohol is taught in public schools.

I do not support an attempt to curb the problem through a prohibition of guns. Remember the effects of alcohol's prohibition? Interesting how education worked so much better than the prohibition. Interesting indeed.

 

[Man Called X]

tell that to the 110 thousand vets who have tried but cant buy guns because the government has appointed them a fiduciary to manage their disability pay

You're on disability, and you couldn't manage your money. PROBABLY NOT THE FIRST PERSON THAT SHOULD BE OWNING A GUN.

And BigMar, I disarmed myself to alleviate any anxiety my fiancee had with me owning a firearm. She has her reasons for not liking guns, and I respected those reasons. And despite my mental health issues, I'm legally still eligible to own my guns and have my CCW.

But nowhere did I claim you were an invincible with a CCW. There's no superhero that's invincible.

 

[Tornicade]

from some random poster on a military forum

-Roughly 5,340,000 violent crimes were committed in the United States during 2008. Of these, about 436,000 or 8% were committed by offenders visibly armed with a gun. - U.S. Department of Justice

-A 2000 study published in the, U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year. - Journal of Quantitative Criminology

-Americans use guns to frighten away intruders who are breaking into their homes about 498,000 times per year. - Center for Disease Control

-Total gun homicides in 2008 totaled 12,179. -Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence.



The right to bear arms is a check and balance in a constitution that was filled with checks and balances.

As american citizens it is our burden and responsibility to maintain these rights.

not to be heroes but as a deterrent and the ability to use them if it became necessary.


Weapons give people a chance to protect themselves. no weapons no chance at all.

Gun education, training and awareness are the most effective forms of gun control there is.

banning guns only creates an imbalance. with an imbalance there is an increased likelyhood of corruption and oppression.

Guns are dangerous regardless of their fire rate.

it doesnt matter whether they are used for hunting or self protection or even just target practice. or preferably not at all. the important thing is that people have them Store them responsibility and educate their children on their proper use and most importantly their dangers.

 

[caf]

Gun education, training and awareness are the most effective forms of gun control there is.

it doesnt matter whether they are used for hunting or self protection or even just target practice. or preferably not at all. the important thing is that people have them Store them responsibility and educate their children on their proper use and most importantly their dangers.

Completely agree on these points. I have had friends who own guns but are very lax with them. Never should a gun be lying around the house loaded. It should be in it's proper place in a gun safe. Needless to say I wasn't friends with them for long.

I grew up with a step father who had many guns of many varieties. I never had access to these guns and he was diligent in proper safety procedures. However, without him I wouldn't have been exposed to this information. Not every parent owns guns, but every of age youth should be taught about guns so that they can make educated and smart decisions should they decide to buy one.