Is it time to make a move ?

[DawgOnKing]

I think that the easiest answer to the issues that plague this team early on lies inside each one of them. At some point they need put someone on HIS A$$ and make a defensive statement. Show a little heart at some point. That would be refreshing and all this team really needs.

Time to quit making excuses and just dig in.

 

[ootbttnlagitnbasf]

wow. great post tj. you bring a lot of thought and insight. i agree 100% about z being our most indispensable player because he has a skill set that no other cav has. even with Lebron's incredible talent level, there are other players that can be effective at small forward. without z we are lost completely because we do not have another legitimate center.

lyxo, i would not start damon jones. damon jones was not the starting point guard for the heat. he started most of their games because of injuries. they began the season with him coming in off the bench.

ferry should not overhaul the team at this point. panic is not a good strategy. trades require two teams, and the team that normally gets the worst end of a mid-season trade is the team that has failed to meet the expectations of their fans and management. that would be the cav's.

there is more involved to creating a good team than assembling talent. too many of us expect that the team will be succeed just because we added talent. that is not the way it works. washington let hughes leave without offering a max contract because they recognized flaws in his game. miami let jones leave because of flaws in his game. ditto for marshall. these were not upper tier free agents. they are talented players who have flaws. snow and z and Lebron and gooden also have flaws. they were the core of a team that failed to make the playoffs last year. it is unreasonable to expect that a lottery team like the cav's will vault to the top of the eastern conference by adding add some players, none of whom were the best or second best players on their previous team. anyone who thought that the addition of three journeymen to a lottery team would produce a power house is fooling themselves. we did not add ray allen or michael redd. larry hughes was the third best player on washington team that was the fifth seed in the east.

but the situation is not all doom and gloom.

brown deserves time to find a way to get these talented players to play together as an effective team. give him a chance to create a good team out of these disparate parts. there is talent here. let it develop. do not disrupt the team's development prematurely. one does not make a cake simply by purchasing the ingredients and setting them on the counter. the ingredients need to be mixed together first. that takes some time. and then the ingredients need to be baked. that takes some time. then the cake needs to be removed and cooled and iced and decorated before it is ready. just because we want our cake to be instantly ready does mean that ferry and brown are on the wrong track. as fans, we can open the oven and see that the "cake" is not done. just because it is gooey and runny does not mean that we should start removing some ingredients and adding new ones now. to do that now would be premature and ill advised.

we are 11-9. after we lose to denver tomorrow we will be only one game over .500. let's not over react, just because we think that we should be doing better. i'll bet the knicks' fans think their team should be doing better as well and they are a team with a better nba legacy than we have.

every team has highs and lows. the spurs lost to the hawks. the hawks have beat them and us in the same week. making significant changes to our core would be detrimental at this point, unless we get a major upgrade in talent. give the players we have a chance to become effective.

last year the bulls began 0-9 and were sub .500 for the first couple of months. if management had panicked and made major roster changes, they would have never had their successful season that included finishing with the third best record in the east and home court advantage in the first round of the playoffs. they acheived those things because they had discipline and focus on the task at hand. we started out better than the bulls, panicked when we hit bumps in the road, changed players and coaches and ended up in the lottery. that is not the way to succeed. let's be better this year than we were last year and give the players and coaches the chance to become as good as we think they might become.

(sorry for the lame cake-analogy)

 

[ChicagoCavFan]

Nice work TJ, except that you left me off of your "list" :chuckles:

Interesting point, bringing in an assistant that brings toughness and credibility. I think LeBron likes Brown, but it seems as though it is a friendship more than a coach-player relationship. At times, Coach has to stop kissin LeBron's arse and get tough. My opinion on Coach Brown is still in the air, but it is very clear to me as to why he is such a GREAT Assistant Coach.

Regarding a move, players that in my opinion are dispensible:

Jackson, Sasha, AV (yep, sorry folks, but only if he is highly regarded on the trade front, meaning a team would give up a greater player now in terms of ability because they see his potential...unfortunately, his salary is low), Gooden, Jones, Snow, Marshall and Z.

I would like Artest here, but will not happen - intra-division. I don't have the time to look at who are some possibilities (or the time to see if salaries match-up), so I won't venture a guess.

This team is soft - we need some toughness now.

 

[TJ_4_CV31]

I just read all three chapters and the epilogue to your last post LyXo. Very thorough work.

You bring up some solid points. Specifically the points surrounding the coaching of defensive rotations. I think everyone has to realize that NBA gaurds WITH the ball will always be a step quicker than the man guarding him making proper rotations a necessity. However, the problem with Damon Jones is that his technique for containing penetration is so poor that his teammates scarcily have time to react. Damon has to learn how to use the same tricks that Snow uses to delay or stay penetration. Instead of turning and chasing the ballhandler into the paint, DJ needs to but his body and a light forearm on the penetrator to slow him down a half a step.

The team as a whole has to have a working knowledge of the defensive strengths and weaknesses of the other 4 players on the court. They have to run to "spots" outside of the charging arc beneath the basket to establish proper position to defend without fouling. Positioning and proper spacing is the key.

 

[TJ_4_CV31]

Nice work TJ, except that you left me off of your "list" :chuckles:

My bad. I knew I would miss a few. You're definitely on the "A" list CCF.

 

[LyXo]

What I noticed last night was that Damon Jones actually fought through some screens, and got there. I was impressed that he was trying to learn to do so, and succeeded at times.

Then Tyron Lue blew by him 2 times. Then that was it. Even though he hit two treys, Tyron Lue answering on the other end meant his demise. Tryon continued to wreck havok until the 7 minute mark in the 4th, where every possession was a foul.

Yes, his weakness is lateral movement and staying in front of his man. Everyone should know this, and must compensate with help.

Of course, this could be considered rash, and reactive, but we had 2 priorities this summer. Defense and outside shooting.

Defense should have been improved with 1- the coach, and 2- Larry Hughes. Hughes has been on and off. Coach should be teaching the system better. I want him to live up to his billing that he want players that can shoot so he can teach them defense, instead of the inverse.

 

[PIP]

I was shocked that the "Z" nut huggers were not out in full force last night...The last game is always the freshest in the mind, and considering there was no "Z," the fact that nobody really mentioned it was shocking...

I do not want to turn this into any kind of "Z" debate, but the fact that some of you continue to blame every single PF next to him is incredible...The fact that teams have no problem attacking the middle against the Cavs is telling... They are not afraid of the defense, shot blocking of "Z"...It reminds me of the Sixers win, no way the Cavs win that game with Dalembert in the middle, Hughes and James do not get to the bucket easily in that one if he is in the middle.

Sure, I know rotations/ and weak side defense are extremely important to a quality defensive team. In fact, it's the back bone... (I can't stand Gooden's defense either)... But I know for a fact, that if we had an atheltic Shot blocking defensive minded center ? we would be much better off... Almost every other team in the league with a winning record does not have an offensive calibur center like "Z". Yet, they still manage without him...

When teams are dropping 100 + every night on you, and they are killing the points in the paint category every single night... You have to put at the very least 50 % of the blame on #11... When the Bucks are letting a rookie and Magloire get offensive rebound after offensive rebound, you have to put half that on "Z" (that's right, I should have come to expect it, he gets 3 defensive rebounds a night, My Bad..)... However, when that is happening, all you hear is (crickets) around here...It gets very quiet...

The damn guy gets in foul trouble it seems every night. (I know, I know, that is because of Drew, and the primeter players, letting their man get inside)... But i'm pretty sure is has nothing to do with anyone fearing him in the paint, and will constantly attack his ass...Or the fact that he is not capable of staying with his man, so he is late on everything... NAH, he is super...

But you know what, it's all for not, it's not all his fault.. If you don't have an upgrade at PG...Both styles of center would struggle...

 

[LyXo]

Z.. Z Z Z Z.... Z

Perhaps you're right, that we might need a defensive shot blocking center.

But, then some people will scream that we need post scoring.. blah.... It's a two-sided story. Gooden can step up in post scoring... but is atrocious when he gets double teamed... So he won't be able to carry the load on his own. He's good for the once-in-a-while iso baby hook.

It's a complement system. To put next to Z, we need that athletic, tough, shotblocker, who'll be there when you need him. I don't see why we need that at the center position... AV would actually fit perfectly in that role.

And, we've gotten manhandled in the paint recently because Z has been in foul trouble.

Pain and suffering.


And, I'm just flustered by the fact that we had the glaring problem of outside shooting last year. We solved it by getting shooters, but are not utilizing them in the starting lineup. Disgusting.

 

[PIP]

And, I'm just flustered by the fact that we had the glaring problem of outside shooting last year. We solved it by getting shooters, but are not utilizing them in the starting lineup. Disgusting.

I was told I was completely wrong about this before the season started..

I said there was no point in signing shooters, and bringing them off the bench when the players that needed them the most was LeBron, Larry and Z... Karma told me I was wrong... Defense should start/ offensive off the bench.

I also said (and some should remember this) that it was pointless because Damon and Marshall needed to be setup, and Luke/Sasha were not going to be able to set them up....

It went completely ignored...

 

[Jimmy]

marbory for snow?

 

[TJ_4_CV31]

Perhaps the Cavs need to change their tempo. They do have a significant advantage in the halfcourt with pick and rolls, Z in the post, or Lebron/Hughes driving the paint. They can bring their opponents ppg down by managing the shot clock better and taking the appropriate shots. Establish and maintain points in the paint.

The 3 point shot should be used as a fourth quarter game changing or gamebreaking weapon (see Pistons). The abundance of long jumpers by James and crew can play into the hands of the transition offense of the opposing team. With Z, James, and Hughes, the Cavs should be in the top 5 in free throws made and attempted. Slow the game down and press your advantages.

 

[PIP]

marbory for snow?

The Knicks would do that deal right around the time of .........never.

No way they move a younger PG for an older one... Especially when Marbury has more value...

 

[ootbttnlagitnbasf]

it matters little what we fans think. the cav's are not a reflection of our individual knowledge of basketball and the nba. it does not matter if one of us was right about something that we posted over the summer. it is not a personal triumph if we guessed right on the outcome of a cav's game or on the outcome of a coin flip. sometimes it seems that the fans who get the most upset here are the fans that seem to be seeking personal glory or respect. let's enjoy the season. we have won more games than we have lost. our team has talent and is entertaining.

the nba is a league where every team has strengths and weaknesses. we are no different.

 

[PIP]

Perhaps the Cavs need to change their tempo. They do have a significant advantage in the halfcourt with pick and rolls, Z in the post, or Lebron/Hughes driving the paint. They can bring their opponents ppg down by managing the shot clock better and taking the appropriate shots. Establish and maintain points in the paint.

The 3 point shot should be used as a fourth quarter game changing or gamebreaking weapon (see Pistons). The abundance of long jumpers by James and crew can play into the hands of the transition offense of the opposing team. With Z, James, and Hughes, the Cavs should be in the top 5 in free throws made and attempted. Slow the game down and press your advantages.

Damn, now you want to start talkin' quality hoops... This is where I agree with you the most...

However, Two issues.

#1 When Z gets going, Larry will not get involved.... Not only will the Cavs continue to go to Z, but, "Z" passes out of the Post only one time per game...You have to have the winning ticket to be on the receiving end of that bullet pass from the big man .

#2 It's hard to get your big man going, when he is squinting his eyes as he sits on the bench with 2 fouls in the first..3 fouls in the second...4 fouls in the 3rd and a nice fat and quick 5th foul in the 4th...

Pick and roll with Z is not an option... (He doesn't roll at all) If he does set a screen (which half the time is an offensive foul since he's moving as he sets the screen) But, it's only for his mid range shot... It takes Z a good 10 seconds to get the wheels in motion to "ROLL"... When he does roll WATCH OUT !!!!!!! HERE COMES THE CHARGE, OR TRAVEL. AS HE SCREAMS: "I LOVE THIS GAME"

Personally, I would like to see some Pick and Roll with LeBron... Or a little LeBron in the post, with some player moving around...

They watch LeBron like the 4th of july around here... :thumbdown

Please TJ, never use the Cavs and Pistons in the same context ever again.. :chuckles:

 

[LyXo]

I was told I was completely wrong about this before the season started..

I said there was no point in signing shooters, and bringing them off the bench when the players that needed them the most was LeBron, Larry and Z... Karma told me I was wrong... Defense should start/ offensive off the bench.

I also said (and some should remember this) that it was pointless because Damon and Marshall needed to be setup, and Luke/Sasha were not going to be able to set them up....

It went completely ignored...

It didn't go completely ignored. Lots of us agreed that we needed shooting in the line-up. And lots of us agreed with Mike Brown that starting defense might be the right thing to do. We like to agree.

--If you don't believe me, here's a thread--
http://www.realcavsfans.com/showthread.php?t=1914

But, it is time to disagree. Disagree with Brown, because it's not working. Disagree because the effectiveness of all our players is at an all-time low.

I wouldn't mind Snow starting. As long as Marshall starts over Drew. That was my #1 preference all along, but since Drew retains the starting nod and Marshall provides a good punch off the bench, I can be content with that situation. But only if Jones starts. It's all about complementing the team. Gooden is the tenacious rebounder, and hopefully melding into a tougher defender, learning rotations. Jones is the floor spreader. If he get steamrolled by a PG, bring in Snow to slow things down and slowly catch up with Marshall gunning away from the arc.

The way we have it now is that if Snow can't handle the guy, we bring in D.Jones to get further manhandled, and chuck three pointers.

I don't understand why we'd need two 3 point specialists in at the same time. It takes away what makes them special in the lineup.


In terms of movement... I don't think that D.Jones, nor D.Marshall, need to be moving. They need to be planted and ready to shoot, that's their purpose. What needs to be moving is the ball. Or a penetrator. Or a defender double teaming Z in the post, thus having a viable option for him to pass it to. He likes passing it to the top of the key where Snow is sitting, all the time. And Snow passes that 18 footer like it's a plate of Korean dog meat. Think if it were Damon Jones. It's not that hard a pass to make, and Z does it all the time. Never anyone there to hit it for him though...