Is it time to make a move ?

[PIP]

It didn't go completely ignored. Lots of us agreed that we needed shooting in the line-up. And lots of us agreed with Mike Brown that starting defense might be the right thing to do. We like to agree.

--If you don't believe me, here's a thread--
http://www.realcavsfans.com/showthread.php?t=1914

But, it is time to disagree. Disagree with Brown, because it's not working. Disagree because the effectiveness of all our players is at an all-time low.

I wouldn't mind Snow starting. As long as Marshall starts over Drew. That was my #1 preference all along, but since Drew retains the starting nod and Marshall provides a good punch off the bench, I can be content with that situation. But only if Jones starts. It's all about complementing the team. Gooden is the tenacious rebounder, and hopefully melding into a tougher defender, learning rotations. Jones is the floor spreader. If he get steamrolled by a PG, bring in Snow to slow things down and slowly catch up with Marshall gunning away from the arc.

The way we have it now is that if Snow can't handle the guy, we bring in D.Jones to get further manhandled, and chuck three pointers.

I don't understand why we'd need two 3 point specialists in at the same time. It takes away what makes them special in the lineup.


In terms of movement... I don't think that D.Jones, nor D.Marshall, need to be moving. They need to be planted and ready to shoot, that's their purpose. What needs to be moving is the ball. Or a penetrator. Or a defender double teaming Z in the post, thus having a viable option for him to pass it to. He likes passing it to the top of the key where Snow is sitting, all the time. And Snow passes that 18 footer like it's a plate of Korean dog meat. Think if it were Damon Jones. It's not that hard a pass to make, and Z does it all the time. Never anyone there to hit it for him though...

Thanks for that LYXO... I look brilliant...On the brink of genius :chuckles:

Even TJ AGREED in that one... We need to start listening to him more.. :chuckles:

 

[CleveRocks]

Good post TJ and an excellent presentation by the way..


I do not agree however that Snow is getting the job done defensively. There is just no evidence to support that. If we were shutting down the point guards of the league, that would be one thing, but when we get torched by Tyrone Lue and Royal Ivey, we are not getting the defensive job done. There are only two teams in the league worse than we are at the point in terms of Net PER, and they are Boston and Portland.

We are also not defending the Power forward position like we need to do. This is a much tougher assignment than defending the point, since so many of the premier players are power forwards. But whether we are banged up, not playing smart or just plain not playing well inside we will not improve unless we can force an opponent to take the outside jumper in the tail end of the shot clock.

 

[Karma]

I was told I was completely wrong about this before the season started..

I said there was no point in signing shooters, and bringing them off the bench when the players that needed them the most was LeBron, Larry and Z... Karma told me I was wrong... Defense should start/ offensive off the bench.

I also said (and some should remember this) that it was pointless because Damon and Marshall needed to be setup, and Luke/Sasha were not going to be able to set them up....

It went completely ignored...

You were not ignored. I wanted Marshall to start from game 1, and I have revisited that request this past week. Snow should continue to start, and Marshall who is at least on par defensively with Gooden, will assist spreading the floor for Hughes, James and Ilgauskas. The fact Marshall is a better rotater defensively to me makes his D more valuable then Gooden's.

Pip, I never ignore you

 

[PIP]

You were not ignored. I wanted Marshall to start from game 1, and I have revisited that request this past week. Snow should continue to start, and Marshall who is at least on par defensively with Gooden, will assist spreading the floor for Hughes, James and Ilgauskas. The fact Marshall is a better rotater defensively to me makes his D more valuable then Gooden's.

Pip, I never ignore you

Okay, maybe I was a little "whoa is me there" :chuckles:

But I agree with you Karma.. The only thing that gets me nervous with that is, you are bringing in two poor defenders off the bench...

I say you start both and give the offense a kick... But, you keep Jones on a short leash...

And for the love of God, we need someone backing up the scorers... This cannot remain as is... We need to get deeper ASAP...

 

[Karma]

Damn, now you want to start talkin' quality hoops... This is where I agree with you the most...

However, Two issues.

#1 When Z gets going, Larry will not get involved.... Not only will the Cavs continue to go to Z, but, "Z" passes out of the Post only one time per game...You have to have the winning ticket to be on the receiving end of that bullet pass from the big man .

#2 It's hard to get your big man going, when he is squinting his eyes as he sits on the bench with 2 fouls in the first..3 fouls in the second...4 fouls in the 3rd and a nice fat and quick 5th foul in the 4th...

Pick and roll with Z is not an option... (He doesn't roll at all) If he does set a screen (which half the time is an offensive foul since he's moving as he sets the screen) But, it's only for his mid range shot... It takes Z a good 10 seconds to get the wheels in motion to "ROLL"... When he does roll WATCH OUT !!!!!!! HERE COMES THE CHARGE, OR TRAVEL. AS HE SCREAMS: "I LOVE THIS GAME"

Personally, I would like to see some Pick and Roll with LeBron... Or a little LeBron in the post, with some player moving around...

They watch LeBron like the 4th of july around here... :thumbdown

Please TJ, never use the Cavs and Pistons in the same context ever again.. :chuckles:

While you like to make your stories a little more colourful , you are close to correct there with Ilgauskas. Z is better with the pick and pop, rather the the roll. Using Drew for a pick'n'roll is a better setup. Really Marshall too is better with the pop then the roll. So basically Drew and James are our best alternatives for the pick'n'roll, and Z and Marshall the pick'n'pop.

 

[Karma]

Okay, maybe I was a little "whoa is me there" :chuckles:

But I agree with you Karma.. The only thing that gets me nervous with that is, you are bringing in two poor defenders off the bench...

I say you start both and give the offense a kick... But, you keep Jones on a short leash...

And for the love of God, we need someone backing up the scorers... This cannot remain as is... We need to get deeper ASAP...

With Anderson and Newble returning soonish I dont see the defense from our bench as a big issue. I would really like to see a Anderson/Gooden frontcourt, mixed with a Jones, Newble and James/Hughes backcourt as our 2nd unit.

 

[PIP]

Say we bring in a combination of Drew,Jones,Newbs,AV and maybe keep in LH or LBJ ? That still is not going to get it done IMO...

I only see Newbs as the stopper (especially if LBJ is the guy with him)... Lets keep in mind, AV plays Hughes like defense from the frontcourt... He's quick, but does like to gamble...

I dunno, I hope it works, but I think a talent upgrade off the bench is in order (especially at the SG spot)

 

[Karma]

I see your point Pip. The 2nd unit with Gooden/Varejao and Newble to me is an energy squad. They are a lively bunch, of which I could add Jones in that catergory. A player like Varejao will chase down any missed assignment by Jones. He will foul alot, but thats the breaks with his play. This wont be a dominant defensive squad by any means, but I hope they feed of each others enthusiasm and attitude. Our starting five should be our fundamentally sound squad, with a shot in the arm hyperactive, i'm having whatever he's having 2nd unit.

 

[cavincali]

I see your point Pip. The 2nd unit with Gooden/Varejao and Newble to me is an energy squad. They are a lively bunch, of which I could add Jones in that catergory. A player like Varejao will chase down any missed assignment by Jones. He will foul alot, but thats the breaks with his play. This wont be a dominant defensive squad by any means, but I hope they feed of each others enthusiasm and attitude. Our starting five should be our fundamentally sound squad, with a shot in the arm hyperactive, i'm having whatever he's having 2nd unit.

I never thought that i would want ira newble to play, but look at me now. Just the fact that he is a "bad ass" will do wonders, not only in games but in practices as well. Thier is no way that this team could be playing good defense in practice, and then it not transfer over into the game.

Getting players like damon, marshall, and hughes brought all of the looks to the team, but what leads to the threes or transition highlight dunks is getting a stop, a rebound and then running. Anderson and Ira will bring that, remember how Ira would get 8 points in the first quater last year off of layups.