Jared from Subway's house is currently being raided by the FBI...

[gourimoko]

You didnt break any laws as you had all expectations she was at least 19 (i think the legal age to bartend in Ohio)

The story that if a girl lies about her age and you still go to jail if you really had no way of knowing is just urban myth. It rarely happens.

That's really unfair to say about the 5 men in the news who it's happened to in just the last 2-3 months.

I'd really like to see some data that backs up this claim.

 

[spydy13]

See, that's the thing, if you can prove or demonstrate coercion, even between adults, then you have a case. But to create a blanket law that criminalizes sex with willing, able and consenting participants is a bridge too far.

As I said, 16 is a fair limit. Then I've no problem with things being handled by the courts; my only problem in that instance is this being considered felony rape.

You can say this about 99% of the people you'd find in any nightclub. That should not, and frankly isn't, a realistic barrier for sexual activity. Nor is it the case that on your 18th birthday that you are more likely to understand sex acts than someone who is a few days or a year and a day younger than you are.

It's simply an arbitrary barrier designed solely to protect the innocence of young girls. We would not be talking about this if it were always framed in the context of a 16 year old boy, junior in high school having a 19 year old girlfriend, a freshman in college. Even if the girl is in her 20s, no one would want her jailed.

We only talk about this in the context of young girls; for really antiquated and outmoded reasons.

You're right... we have very different experiences.

I've shared my first sexual experiences on this board before (hell, it even came up in the weekend chats). I was essentially "raped" by my best friends older sister. I put "rape" around quotes because by any definition you'll find, it was rape - and no it was not consensual, I said no, she told me she'd tell all my friends I was a "fag" because I was scared and "didn't like girls." She was popular, and if she said that, people would start calling me a fag. So I did what she said.. But even with that, I simply don't consider myself a victim. Even though I was 11 years old, and she was 18-19 years old. I don't consider myself a victim.

It all started off with her "teaching me how to kiss" to get me ready for all the girls that would want to try. That quickly turned into touching, and her "examining" my junk to see if "my balls had dropped." That turned into this chick forcing me to go down on her until she came. And that eventually turned into hump sessions where I would essentially just grind into her, with some penetration but not always, until she came. It wasn't until I was older (13) and more conditioned that it turned "consensual," meaning that I wouldn't say no.

By the time I was 16, her and I were dating on the side. She would have guys and I would have girls, but when we were around each other, everyone knew we were a couple.

Now, here's the crazy part.

Everyone found out about this when I was 12 years old. Even my own mother found out some things; the chick was so ill she called and left this weird ass sexual message on the answering machine and everyone in my house heard it while she was calling. My brothers looked at me, my mom looked at me, my stepdad just put his head down like wtf have I gotten into... My mom was like "wtf did you do?" My brothers were like "wow.. ole girl up the way?" My older brother was kind of shocked and worried, but my oldest brother who was more streetwise was not only impressed, but encouraging.

So again, I don't consider myself a victim. My mom went over there and talked with her; and she told my mom, and they had the weirdest conversation I've ever heard. My mother banned me from going over there and threatened the girl; but I lost my best friend. After awhile, my oldest brother convinced my mother than no harm was done and I should be able to go over my friends house.. And so I did. And it started right back up...

But the quick point here is that, had I been female, all hell would've broken loose and either my mother or oldest brother would have shot the assailant - consensual or not. So there is a serious double standard here.

Anyway... When I was 14, my mother knew I was sexually active - not only with my best friends sister but with 2 other girls at school. She just begged me not to.

When I was 15-16, I was heavily drinking, living in my parents attic, beer cans, Paul Mason bottles. So long as I wasn't smoking crack, my mom was cool.. I felt bad because I'd come home from school to change for work (I worked full time since I was 15), and all of my beer cans, condom wrappers, jerkoff rags, would be cleaned up - my porn mags put away.

I was a shitty kid, and my mom didn't know what to do with me... It's not her fault. I was more than a handful... As a parent today, I have no idea how I would handle a kid like me. Ass whoopings stopped working, just made things worse, and all I wanted was out.

So I moved out.. After that, sex was a daily occurance. Recipe for sex: Find any girl at school (I was a junior at Heights High), ask them if they wanna hang out after school and I'll "drive" them home.. Leave school, hang out, change of plans - back to my place - flirt.. pull dick out.. talk.. pull dick back out.. oral sex -> sex. Wash, rinse, repeat. Day after day after day...

So yes, I have a different experience than most, and yes, I've been through worse things than what's described above, but.. my outlook is not that sexual predators don't exist. The girl that I was with as a young kid was a pedophile - a true sex predator. I only realized that when I realized I wasn't "special" and when I found out I wasn't the only one, I just happened to be the first one.

I didn't turn out fine.. I have a lot of issues with monogamy. As in, every single day is a struggle to not think about sex. When I was in Hawaii, sex was my pastime. My wife knew this at the time, and now I'm gladly and faithfully married, but I have 3 kids from 2 different women and I'm constantly bouncing around just to spend time with my kids.

I'm okay now - but those times were turbulent. But knowing the lives that my mother and father had, mine is nothing in comparison.

My only point is that life needs to be experienced, and creating these kinds of laws don't prevent real predatory behavior, they seem to too often ensnare folks who are legitimately not trying to harm or and have no intent to harm someone.

I never speak in blanket statements. But I think the statistics show that considering a third of 14 year olds have had some form of sexual relations, it seems to be a very natural thing. It might not have been for you, but it was a nearly uncontrollable urge for me.

Definitely.

You're definitely right that the double standard in this issue is simple ridiculous, because it is impossible to say that there wasn't a psychological ramification to you being introduced to sex at such a young age. Boys get fucked up in the head about this shit just as much as girls do.

That was kinda my point that I understand why the state feels the need to try to have some sort of barrier from older people taking advantage of a young person's biological urge for sex before they are mentally ready for the act. But I guess as I said before no one is necessarily really ready for that mental side of sex when it happens regardless of age, and you're never going to stop kids from acting on that biological urge. But again, I also think that there is a reason to protect younger people from men and women over the typical college years who are knowingly going after teens and potentially fucking them up for life. I fully agree with you though that there also has to be some legal mechanism that protects older people from being "tricked."

 

[gourimoko]

I also think that there is a reason to protect younger people from men and women over the typical college years who are knowingly going after teens and potentially fucking them up for life. I fully agree with you though that there also has to be some legal mechanism that protects older people from being "tricked."

Not every problem can be solved by the state.

Really, this is a parenting issue...

I wasn't fucking girls in class; I was fucking them outside of class. Had I had my ass at home, doing something productive, none of that shit would've happened. But too often, especially in Black households, you're essentially told as a child "get out and come back when it's dark." So a lot of shit happens between 10AM-9PM, every single day of a summer.

But should the state be locking people up for having sex with 16-year olds? No. Certainly not. And in 31 states, that's already the case.

But for people 14 and 15, I do think an investigation is warranted to determine what exactly happened, to put an end to it, to separate the parties involved, and if predatory behavior or intent is found, then some form of criminal action should be taken. But calling it "rape" and putting guys on lists is generally bullshit.

People trying to control their daughters by begging the state to prosecute and do what they themselves have failed to do.

 

[spydy13]

Not every problem can be solved by the state.

Really, this is a parenting issue...

I wasn't fucking girls in class; I was fucking them outside of class. Had I had my ass at home, doing something productive, none of that shit would've happened. But too often, especially in Black households, you're essentially told as a child "get out and come back when it's dark." So a lot of shit happens between 10AM-9PM, every single day of a summer.

But should the state be locking people up for having sex with 16-year olds? No. Certainly not. And in 31 states, that's already the case.

But for people 14 and 15, I do think an investigation is warranted to determine what exactly happened, to put an end to it, to separate the parties involved, and if predatory behavior or intent is found, then some form of criminal action should be taken. But calling it "rape" and putting guys on lists is generally bullshit.

People trying to control their daughters by begging the state to prosecute and do what they themselves have failed to do.

To go the other way with this (not that I condone it in any way shape or form), if there is no difference between 16/17 and 18 then why is there a difference between 14/15 and 16?

 

[gourimoko]

To go the other way with this (not that I condone it in any way shape or form), if there is no difference between 16/17 and 18 then why is there a difference between 14/15 and 16?

Well, if you go up-thread, I laid out the biological, emotional, and physical differences by age group according to a sourced article that in itself, cited multiple studies.

But, to your point there might not be a difference in many people.. That's why I'm not for blanket laws that consider consensual behavior "rape."

Criminalize it, sure? I'm 100% all for it.. Just don't call it "rape." That's why I've said, repeatedly, that if someone is under 16 and has sex with someone who is an adult - a jury needs to decide if a reasonable individual could have made the mistake that the minor in this instance was over, or was successfully impersonating a person who would be over, the age of consent.

It's more complex, more nuanced, and not black and white. But as we've both acknowledged, the issue isn't black and white.

Side-story, since we're talking personal experience:

As a senior in high school, being 18 years old and an "adult;" I remember a sophomore girl (she was 15) that everyone wanted to fuck. I mean, everyone. This girl looked way older than she was. She was easily a dime piece, and always was.. I actually ended up fucking her when she was 17, with my girlfriend who was bisexual.

This girl was super promiscuous and had tons and tons of partners, guys and girls. A few years later we found out that she contracted AIDS and gave it to her girlfriend (sharing a dildo? I was a bit surprised actually). She was dead within a year of us finding out. We both dodged a bullet..

But, the point is that she was actively dating guys who were way older than all of us, and it was entirely by choice. When she was 15, her boyfriend was 26. Guy were buying her all kinds of shit. By the time she was 17, her girlfriend was 22 but she was still seeing guys on the side of all ages. She was slinging her pussy essentially for ends... and a lot of hotter girls in high school learn to sling their pussy for whatever they need. They learn to do it at a young age, and typically from sexually or (verbally suggestive) abusive family members.

I knew a guy she fucked, he was 23, she was 16.. He had no idea she was 16, she said she was 18 and a senior. Again, I reiterate, she was smoking hot. She wanted to hang out, get out of the house, and she expected weed, booze, gifts, etc. Bitch even had a cell phone, which was rare when I was in high school...

All I'm saying is that none of those guys "raped" her. She knew damn well what she was doing. Often times, she instigated it. She didn't want anything to do with guys her age. She only wanted older guys. Again, lots of girls are like that.

 

[KI4MVP]

Right, but my quote was that AFAIK the majority of states recognize the age of consent as being 16; and in fact, this is true; 31 states hold that sex with a person 16 years old or older is not a criminal offense. New York is one of only 8 states that have the age of consent as 17, with the remaining 11 states having their age set at 18.

which makes it incredibly stupid for him to travel to NY to have sex (paid or not) with a 16 year old.

As I said in numerous posts; I'm not debating the legality of the law, I'm debating the ethics and just nature of the law. Smoking pot recreationally is illegal, that doesn't mean such laws are justified. That's the argument I'm making.

I've thought about this quite a bit since it was brought up in this thread.

My first answer was this. There is an inconsistency with the law when it's illegal to pay someone to have sex with you when it's simultaneously legal to pay that same person to have sex with you if you also get their consent to film it and sell it as pornography.

I thought about that some more and you have to be older than the age of consent to be in pornography. So this inconsistency doesn't address the issue of paying a 16 year old prostitute.

One ethical issues with prostitution in relation to this case is should a rich and famous 30 year old man be able to offer increasingly larger amounts of money to a 16 year old to get her to have sex with him.

Even if she is at the age of consent in the state they are in at the time, is she really old enough to make a decision to sell her body when she isn't even old enough yet to legally make the decision to drink? The ethical issue is the person offering the money to someone so young.

The real ethical issue in general is how do women get into prostitution in the first place and what keeps them there. Was it their decision to start or were they somehow pressured into it. Is it their decision to continue or are they somehow trapped into continuing.

 

[spydy13]

Well, if you go up-thread, I laid out the biological, emotional, and physical differences by age group according to a sourced article that in itself, cited multiple studies.

But, to your point there might not be a difference in many people.. That's why I'm not for blanket laws that consider consensual behavior "rape."

Criminalize it, sure? I'm 100% all for it.. Just don't call it "rape." That's why I've said, repeatedly, that if someone is under 16 and has sex with someone who is an adult - a jury needs to decide if a reasonable individual could have made the mistake that the minor in this instance was over, or was successfully impersonating a person who would be over, the age of consent.

It's more complex, more nuanced, and not black and white. But as we've both acknowledged, the issue isn't black and white.

Side-story, since we're talking personal experience:

As a senior in high school, being 18 years old and an "adult;" I remember a sophomore girl (she was 15) that everyone wanted to fuck. I mean, everyone. This girl looked way older than she was. She was easily a dime piece, and always was.. I actually ended up fucking her when she was 17, with my girlfriend who was bisexual.

This girl was super promiscuous and had tons and tons of partners, guys and girls. A few years later we found out that she contracted AIDS and gave it to her girlfriend (sharing a dildo? I was a bit surprised actually). She was dead within a year of us finding out. We both dodged a bullet..

But, the point is that she was actively dating guys who were way older than all of us, and it was entirely by choice. When she was 15, her boyfriend was 26. Guy were buying her all kinds of shit. By the time she was 17, her girlfriend was 22 but she was still seeing guys on the side of all ages. She was slinging her pussy essentially for ends... and a lot of hotter girls in high school learn to sling their pussy for whatever they need. They learn to do it at a young age, and typically from sexually or (verbally suggestive) abusive family members.

I knew a guy she fucked, he was 23, she was 16.. He had no idea she was 16, she said she was 18 and a senior. Again, I reiterate, she was smoking hot. She wanted to hang out, get out of the house, and she expected weed, booze, gifts, etc. Bitch even had a cell phone, which was rare when I was in high school...

All I'm saying is that none of those guys "raped" her. She knew damn well what she was doing. Often times, she instigated it. She didn't want anything to do with guys her age. She only wanted older guys. Again, lots of girls are like that.

I agree that "rape" connotes forcible/violent rape, which is definitely way way different than whatever you want to consider an older person banging a person not considered "of age" by society.

I also agree that there needs to be some sort of protection for older guys (or girls) that are "tricked" by people who are essentially selling their body.

 

[gourimoko]

I agree that "rape" connotes forcible/violent rape, which is definitely way way different than whatever you want to consider an older person banging a person not considered "of age" by society.

I also agree that there needs to be some sort of protection for older guys (or girls) that are "tricked" by people who are essentially selling their body.

Just don't involve the state.. Again, under 16, sure.. just don't call it rape.. Over 16, it's not the business of the government.

 

[gourimoko]

which makes it incredibly stupid for him to travel to NY to have sex (paid or not) with a 16 year old.



I've thought about this quite a bit since it was brought up in this thread.

My first answer was this. There is an inconsistency with the law when it's illegal to pay someone to have sex with you when it's simultaneously legal to pay that same person to have sex with you if you also get their consent to film it and sell it as pornography.

I thought about that some more and you have to be older than the age of consent to be in pornography. So this inconsistency doesn't address the issue of paying a 16 year old prostitute.

One ethical issues with prostitution in relation to this case is should a rich and famous 30 year old man be able to offer increasingly larger amounts of money to a 16 year old to get her to have sex with him.

Even if she is at the age of consent in the state they are in at the time, is she really old enough to make a decision to sell her body when she isn't even old enough yet to legally make the decision to drink? The ethical issue is the person offering the money to someone so young.

The real ethical issue in general is how do women get into prostitution in the first place and what keeps them there. Was it their decision to start or were they somehow pressured into it. Is it their decision to continue or are they somehow trapped into continuing.

I think the real ethical issue with prostitution is actually quite simple:

If a woman can pay a doctor to have an abortion; then a woman can receive money to get fucked. If one is a private, commercial, relationship with her doctor; then the other seems to fit the same motif.

I think it's an inconsistent position to support Roe v. Wade while being against prostitution.

As far as age.. Age of consent is age of consent.. I agree the inconsistencies are problematic; but I don't think you should be putting away the Jons, rather than the hookers.. Makes no sense.

 

[godfather]

I ran into a dilemma a few years ago with a young woman, who I considered a girl, because she is a girl, despite her age. I am 31. 29 then, she was 20. I am still friends with her.

But taking the relationship to another step was viable at the time. And one, I decided wasn't proper, or appropriate at all. Given emotionally and maturity wise, we were both vastly different, and at different points of our life. There was a clear difference.

And lots of cases, I feel that plays the most critical aspect, when deciding whether or not to engage in a relationship with someone of a different age group.

She was 20, very legal. Very attractive, physically there was no problem at all with her.

She looked very much like a healthy and attractive woman. But there's always different things to consider, besides the attraction angle.

Especially when you get older, like myself, and your needs and things you felt when you were younger change a lot as you age. Happens to everyone.

So it literally made no sense, for me to enact on this, given the vast differences of where she was in her life, and where I was.

That's why yes, in general, I don't think anyone in their 30s, or older, has any serious business being with most girls in their early twenties, to teen years.

But, it's hard put a clear distinction involving age as the same for every individual, because people don't evolve the exact same, at each age. Hell, I've known 17 year old girls that were more developed, grown up, mature, and ready for the real world than her. Age is not a set number, that's the exact same with every single person, that needs to be understood better.

A lot of times its a judgment call for that person to make.

It's a very fickle, and will likely always be a flawed way to ever really tackle distinctively what's appropriate and what's not, clear cut.

 

[Otsego Mar]

Just don't involve the state.. Again, under 16, sure.. just don't call it rape.. Over 16, it's not the business of the government.

I think it's fairly simple.

Sex with a minor (someone who has not hit/completed puberty) punishable by law.

As mentioned, puberty hits at different ages and could be as young as 10 or younger in some cases. I think 13 should be the limit set by government if government were to be involved. It should be noted that setting an age, such as 13 or any age for that matter, is not advocating for such behavior to take place, rather simply protecting the sovereignty of human beings based on biologically functioning systems. It's quite embarrassing to me, really, when arbitrary age limits are tied to laws - it does not nor should not work that way for all intents and purposes.

Of course, strong family values (among others) may dictate whether or not a 14 year old or even an 18+ year old is sexually active. In fact, a strong family ground is ALL that is needed to decide if/when a child of the family should or should not be sexually active. The problem here is that family values have been distorted and bent by the shape of the world today and by those wishing to be told how they should raise their children.

I also believe a person who harbors hundreds of videos OF ANY KIND should not be punished (the creators of such videos should DEFINITELY be punished, for example, if we are talking about abuse of children). It may be advocated that such an individual might seek/need psychological/sexual help in some capacity.

However, those that molest and/or rape ANY human and ESPECIALLY a child (one deemed to be pre-pubescent, including solicitation) should expect to be punished by law strictly.

You think it's creepy that a 40 year old wants to bang a 15 year old? That's fine. You are entitled to your opinions and feelings. And you would be correct in stating that in some states it very well may be LEGAL and may be considered "normal" by those who have a keen understanding of the human condition.

 

[gourimoko]

I ran into a dilemma a few years ago with a young woman, who I considered a girl, because she is a girl, despite her age. I am 31. 29 then, she was 20. I am still friends with her.

But taking the relationship to another step was viable at the time. And one, I decided wasn't proper, or appropriate at all. Given emotionally and maturity wise, we were both vastly different, and at different points of our life. There was a clear difference.

And lots of cases, I feel that plays the most critical aspect, when deciding whether or not to engage in a relationship with someone of a different age group.

She was 20, very legal. Very attractive, physically there was no problem at all with her.

She looked very much like a healthy and attractive woman. But there's always different things to consider, besides the attraction angle.

Especially when you get older, like myself, and your needs and things you felt when you were younger change a lot as you age. Happens to everyone.

So it literally made no sense, for me to enact on this, given the vast differences of where she was in her life, and where I was.

That's why yes, in general, I don't think anyone in their 30s, or older, has any serious business being with most girls in their early twenties, to teen years.

But, it's hard put a clear distinction involving age as the same for every individual, because people don't evolve the exact same, at each age. Hell, I've known 17 year old girls that were more developed, grown up, mature, and ready for the real world than her. Age is not a set number, that's the exact same with every single person, that needs to be understood better.

A lot of times its a judgment call for that person to make.

It's a very fickle, and will likely always be a flawed way to ever really tackle distinctively what's appropriate and what's not, clear cut.

Before I left Cleveland I was dating this model chick. Real artsy type of broad. She was incredibly hot, loved to read, self-motivated, driven, bitch was even in a few commercials including a Sprint commercial at the time. I'd say she was a solid 8.5 or a 9 on a good day with makeup.

But... of course.. this bitch was batshit crazy...

But yea when we started dating she said she was 23 - I was 27-28? IIRC (it's been awhile). Anyway, I love to go to bars, get drinks, etc.. We went a few places and then whenever she was carded she'd say she forgot her ID. I wouldn't think anything of it, and we'd keep it moving.

It wasn't until at least 4 weeks into the relationship, she really wanted me to meet her folks - and they lived walking distance from my place so I had no problem with it. That was when she told me she was actually only 20 years old. I was like, oh, damn... But I didn't break up with her.. She was my chick.

And you're right, we had very little in common and eventually I was literally just emulating the guy she would want me to be and that got tiring. I eventually ended up getting back with my ex and I thought she really wouldn't care. Turns out she was devastated. I thought she was as bored as I was, and wouldn't be too upset. I sure as hell wasn't. She had told her parents I was Mr. Right, I had swept her off her feet, we were going to get married. Her mom and dad loved me.. I thought it all very strange indeed.

Anyway, my ex called her up and laughed at her and the bitch came and threw a brick through my bedroom window in the middle of winter.

But yeah, I agree the age difference can be problematic - but sometimes it can have it's charm too.

 

[Hurl Bruce]

I hung out with a 20 year old hottie when I was around 39. Almost literally half my age. There was little to nothing in common between the two of us, and she was continually wasted it seemed. I was like, "Fuck...I can't handle this shit all of the time." I stopped seeing her after a few times.

I banged her, of course...which was awesome until my married friends wouldn't stop pestering me to hear the story over and over again. I felt like fucking C3PO telling the Ewoks about fighting Vader each time (I am good at sound effects).

 

[godfather]

Emotionally unstable women is just a nightmare. When you're younger, you don't care that much, you can barely even keep it in your pants. I've made some very, very, very poor decisions regarding women/girls because of that when I was younger.

Now, obviously attraction is important, always will be, but I feel I've developed a much better sense of what I want and need out of a woman. Where I was 20, I had no clue at all, when you remove the physical aspect of them. I just basically wanted to fuck them. I think most feel that way when they're younger too.

 

[gourimoko]

I think it's fairly simple.

Sex with a minor (someone who has not hit/completed puberty) punishable by law.

As mentioned, puberty hits at different ages and could be as young as 10 or younger in some cases. I think 13 should be the limit set by government if government were to be involved. It should be noted that setting an age, such as 13 or any age for that matter, is not advocating for such behavior to take place, rather simply protecting the sovereignty of human beings based on biologically functioning systems. It's quite embarrassing to me, really, when arbitrary age limits are tied to laws - it does not nor should not work that way for all intents and purposes.

Of course, strong family values (among others) may dictate whether or not a 14 year old or even an 18+ year old is sexually active. In fact, a strong family ground is ALL that is needed to decide if/when a child of the family should or should not be sexually active. The problem here is that family values have been distorted and bent by the shape of the world today and by those wishing to be told how they should raise their children.

I also believe a person who harbors hundreds of videos OF ANY KIND should not be punished (the creators of such videos should DEFINITELY be punished, for example, if we are talking about abuse of children). It may be advocated that such an individual might seek/need psychological/sexual help in some capacity.

However, those that molest and/or rape ANY human and ESPECIALLY a child (one deemed to be pre-pubescent, including solicitation) should expect to be punished by law strictly.

You think it's creepy that a 40 year old wants to bang a 15 year old? That's fine. You are entitled to your opinions and feelings. And you would be correct in stating that in some states it very well may be LEGAL and may be considered "normal" by those who have a keen understanding of the human condition.

For me, this is the opposite end of the spectrum.

I'm not comfortable, at all, with adults having sex with 13 year olds. Boys or girls. I think at a certain age, parents have an expectation that society will prevent predatory behavior. I mean, we don't let 13 year old kids do quite a number of things, I don't see why sex can't be added to that list.

Now, again, I don't believe in throwing the book at someone if they (as well as a jury) reasonably believed the other party was of age; but at 13, the reasonable part there is stretched so thin that I don't think it's really worth talking about.

That's why I say 16, which is the majority consensus of the states now, makes perfect sense. 14-15, and I have no problem with the courts getting involved just don't charge these guys with "rape." 13 years old? I have a hard time understanding how that's a consensual and equal sexual relationship - I can leave room for doubt - but... There's not many 13 year olds that can successfully pass as adults. This is were I'd start to think it's completely unreasonable in the general case.