Jim Thome Retires an Indian

[AZ_]

It's important to remember that Thome was pretty much a DH-only player for 9 of his 22 seasons. Omar, who will be a Hall of Famer as well, provided not only very good offensive numbers but was one of the (if not the) best defensive shortstops of all-time. I think their overall impact in their primes is actually pretty close.

I like Vizquel as much as anyone, but saying he had very good offensive numbers is simply a fallacy.

He had some good seasons sporadically throughout his career, but he's a career .688 OPS (82 OPS+).

Jim Thome has a career WAR of 72, Omar 45.

They're not remotely the same in the way they impacted the game.

 

[kosis]

Thome was a MUCH better player than those 2.

Can't agree. Problem with these things is people get way too enamored with home runs. Don't get me wrong, his numbers are amazing... but to say that someone like Vizquel is MUCH inferior is a ridiculous statement. As another poster mentioned, guy might be the best defensive SS of all time. Thome didn't even play D much of the time.

Statues are ridiculous though, unless you're someone like Jordan who is a cut above everyone... or especially someone like Jackie Robinson that transcended sports. Being an above average player that brought the city zero titles (not a knock) and didn't change the game in any way shouldn't merit a damn statue.

 

[Derek]

I wasn't aware that there was a set criteria for what merits a statue. I thought it was just a cool thing to do for a player that meant a lot to the franchise. I'd support ones for multiple players throughout Indians history.

 

[col63onel]

Can't agree. Problem with these things is people get way too enamored with home runs. Don't get me wrong, his numbers are amazing... but to say that someone like Vizquel is MUCH inferior is a ridiculous statement. As another poster mentioned, guy might be the best defensive SS of all time. Thome didn't even play D much of the time.

Statues are ridiculous though, unless you're someone like Jordan who is a cut above everyone... or especially someone like Jackie Robinson that transcended sports. Being an above average player that brought the city zero titles (not a knock) and didn't change the game in any way shouldn't merit a damn statue.

If it was only HRs, maybe. Thome's offense DWARFS Vizquel. It's not remotely close. It's like comparing Kyrie to Gee, offensively.

 

[Chris]

From my perspective, he's only getting a statue because he's hit the most HRs in Indians history, making him the best Indians power hitter in Indians history. (Belle, Murray, Ramirez etc could have claimed this title, but they weren't with the team long enough.) So we have a statue for our best career hitter, and a statue for our best career pitcher.

Indians will never have a better power hitter than Thome. So there's that.

 

[Steve_424]

Let's examine the Jeter/Thome debate. First of all, you are completely ignoring the regular season, which is arbitrary and wrong. Thome's regular season number dwarf Jeter's.

If we even allow that and look at the "clutch" factor, Thome was actually better than Jeter in LCS and World Series play. Jeter's advantage comes from ALDS play. If Jeter was so clutch, wouldn't he up his game as the playoffs got deeper, like Thome did?

Jeter had a great career and is a HOF. But this notion that he is a transcendent, one in a generation player is ESPN filled baloney. If he has the same career with the Royals, people would view him as borderline HOF.

I did cite regular season statistics:

Completely different types of players. Jeter has far more hits, runs scored, doubles, and steals with a much higher career average and much fewer strikeouts. Thome has far more home runs, runs batted in, and walks.

Jeter has better numbers than Thome in most categories and played the field.

As for the playoff numbers:

ALDS

Jeter - .343/.397/.519/.916
Thome - .181/.268/.378/.646

ALCS

Jeter - .257/.340/.412/.751
Thome - .231/.344/.577/.921

World Series

Jeter - .321/.384/.449/.832
Thome - .255/.352/.511/.862

Sorry man, I can't say a guy who hit .321 in 38 World Series games didn't "up his game"

And a guy who has 3,426 hits (7th all-time), 5 Gold Gloves, and 5 World Series Rings is not a borderline HOF. ESPN is full of shit a lot of the time, but Jeter is absolutely a once-in-a-generation talent.

 

[Steve_424]

If it was only HRs, maybe. Thome's offense DWARFS Vizquel. It's not remotely close. It's like comparing Kyrie to Gee, offensively.

And Omar's defense dwarfs Thome's, who was a DH for a large chunk of his career. Different players who impacted the game in a major way.

 

[Steve_424]

I like Vizquel as much as anyone, but saying he had very good offensive numbers is simply a fallacy.

He had some good seasons sporadically throughout his career, but he's a career .688 OPS (82 OPS+).

Jim Thome has a career WAR of 72, Omar 45.

They're not remotely the same in the way they impacted the game.

Omar was a late bloomer at the plate, so I do take into account that the numbers are lowered by that. I also take into account that Thome's only job was to hit for nine years of his career, which makes a difference in wear and tear of a 162 game season.

As you said, very different in the way they impacted the game.

 

[Steve_424]

Complete side note - it's interesting that this has become a Thome vs Omar debate while nobody can tell me a good reason why Thome got a statue over Larry Doby.

 

[Derek]

Thome was a better player than Doby? Really though, I don't see why this has to be a debate of Thome vs anyone. I'd fully support statues for Vizquel, Doby, and even Lofton. There are a lot of people who deserve to be honored, Thome being one of them.

 

[I.K.W.T]

How much money from his Phillies contract did Jim Thome pay to have this statue built?

 

[Steve_424]

Thome was a better player than Doby? Really though, I don't see why this has to be a debate of Thome vs anyone. I'd fully support statues for Vizquel, Doby, and even Lofton. There are a lot of people who deserve to be honored, Thome being one of them.

Not sure I agree Thome was a better overall player, but I do place great value in defense.

 

[gourimoko]

I just don't think they had to give someone a statue because of that run.

To be honest, that run was some of my happiest, and worst, memories as a sports fan. I have a lot of great memories at Jacob's Field.

 

[col63onel]

I did cite regular season statistics:

Completely different types of players. Jeter has far more hits, runs scored, doubles, and steals with a much higher career average and much fewer strikeouts. Thome has far more home runs, runs batted in, and walks.

Jeter has better numbers than Thome in most categories and played the field.

As for the playoff numbers:

ALDS

Jeter - .343/.397/.519/.916
Thome - .181/.268/.378/.646

ALCS

Jeter - .257/.340/.412/.751
Thome - .231/.344/.577/.921

World Series

Jeter - .321/.384/.449/.832
Thome - .255/.352/.511/.862

Sorry man, I can't say a guy who hit .321 in 38 World Series games didn't "up his game"

And a guy who has 3,426 hits (7th all-time), 5 Gold Gloves, and 5 World Series Rings is not a borderline HOF. ESPN is full of shit a lot of the time, but Jeter is absolutely a once-in-a-generation talent.

Batting average is a pretty worthless metric. I can't take you seriously if you use it for any type of analysis.

Gold Gloves is subjective, World Series are a team accomplishment. All of his hits are nice, but he ended up with a whopping 116 OPS+. That isn't once in a generation stuff.

 

[col63onel]

Omar was a late bloomer at the plate, so I do take into account that the numbers are lowered by that. I also take into account that Thome's only job was to hit for nine years of his career, which makes a difference in wear and tear of a 162 game season.

As you said, very different in the way they impacted the game.

What? Does that mean Thome numbers get elevated because he was one of the best hitters in baseball at age 24?