Johnny Manziel: Swan Won't Return His Calls

[Amherstcavsfan]

I do think Manziel has the talent to play in the NFL. I just don't know if he's a franchise guy, and I don't know if he's not a franchise guy, you put up with his antics as a backup.

He's going to have to do a lot in these last three games to win me over. Like...win 2, and play really well doing so. I think there is no chance of that happening, but I hope it does.

 

[Spectre]

Saw a lot of good things from Manziel today. Feet were calm in the pocket, had a good feel for the pass rush, etc. Look forward to hearing Dre Knott and Zac Jackson's takes, because they were pretty adamant that Mangenius was going to come in with a vengeance and throw blitz packages at him that would overwhelm him... He didn't light up the box score, but we also ran for over 200 yards. Don't see how you can watch him now vs. last season and not see tangible progress.

This is how evaluation mistakes are made.

The three teams that people point to as progress from Johnny (PIT/SF/TEN) are ranked 21st, 25th and 31st in QB rating allowed. His two horrendous games this year (NYJ/CIN) are against the teams ranked 5th and 6th respectively. What Johnny is doing is beating garbage secondaries.

He showed a "good feel" for the rush because San Francisco sucks at it. Mangini can dial up whatever he wants but he doesn't have the personnel to rush the passer. They're ranked 29th in sacks and it showed. Johnny had ALL day to make a lot of these throws. Yet he still held the ball forever on a lot of dropbacks and we still saw a taste of the horrid decision making. The pick across his body. The safety that he got bailed out on with a penalty. He's the same guy, just a slightly improved version playing against cupcakes.

Fortunately this wasn't the last game of the season. Seattle and KC are 8th and 4th in QB rating allowed and we're playing them in their buildings. If Johnny goes out there and wins THOSE games and plays really well, that changes things a bit... but there's a high probability he's about to get buried.

It's going to be painful this week listening to people pretending the defense that just allowed more rushing yards to our RBs than our past SIX opponents COMBINED is a real test for Johnny but it'll all correct itself next week and the week after when he's either unmasked as the same lousy QB or he does something that's actually worth getting excited about. He just hasn't yet.

 

[Birdy89]

The Johnny haterade is strong with some folks. Always looking to denigrate his success and knock him down.

 

[AZ_]

The Johnny haterade is strong with some folks. Always looking to denigrate his success and knock him down.

Some people are objective, that's gotta be a new concept for you.

 

[Birdy89]

Hartline is done for the year.

We are on like our 19th string receivers at this point, that is really a fair evaluation of him.

To think of what he has done offensively with the severely limited weapons at his disposal makes it that much more impressive.

Imagine what a stud he'd be with Gordon, a 1st round receiver, and a more viable NFL running back.

 

[AZ_]

That will undoubtedly be the excuse when they actually play someone worthwhile.

 

[spydy13]

This is how evaluation mistakes are made.

The three teams that people point to as progress from Johnny (PIT/SF/TEN) are ranked 21st, 25th and 31st in QB rating allowed. His two horrendous games this year (NYJ/CIN) are against the teams ranked 5th and 6th respectively. What Johnny is doing is beating garbage secondaries.

He showed a "good feel" for the rush because San Francisco sucks at it. Mangini can dial up whatever he wants but he doesn't have the personnel to rush the passer. They're ranked 29th in sacks and it showed. Johnny had ALL day to make a lot of these throws. Yet he still held the ball forever on a lot of dropbacks and we still saw a taste of the horrid decision making. The pick across his body. The safety that he got bailed out on with a penalty. He's the same guy, just a slightly improved version playing against cupcakes.

Fortunately this wasn't the last game of the season. Seattle and KC are 8th and 4th in QB rating allowed and we're playing them in their buildings. If Johnny goes out there and wins THOSE games and plays really well, that changes things a bit... but there's a high probability he's about to get buried.

It's going to be painful this week listening to people pretending the defense that just allowed more rushing yards to our RBs than our past SIX opponents COMBINED is a real test for Johnny but it'll all correct itself next week and the week after when he's either unmasked as the same lousy QB or he does something that's actually worth getting excited about. He just hasn't yet.

Yeah, I'm much more interested to see how he does in the next three games than I was today. As someone that hopes he develops (either for us or as trade bait) I would have been massively disappointed if he didn't play well today.

Imo, Johnny can play in this league (either as a mid/low teir starter or backup [although he won't be worth the headache as a backup if he doesn't shape up]), but if Goff or Lynch are legit franchise guys then you have to go after them. Johnny's height and natural instinct to make plays like the one that led to his pick today will always hold him back to a certain extent.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I don't think he played bad, but I would be very careful taking too much away from this game. The 49ers had their bags completely packed. They didn't even look like they cared out there. The game slowing down comment particularly is what I would be cautious of. He consistently had a perfect pocket today. our front 5 physically dominated that game from the first whistle to the last. And when he didn't he went down. He got bailed out of a safety due to a facemask. That pick was really bad. Even with all the time he had today he still consistently threw off of his back foot. I give him credit for finding the open guys and hitting some throws, but as a football team we just completely dominated today. Almost everybody looked really good

SF had no interest in putting a professional effort forth today, and the result was a team that runs for 80 yards a game had what? 240?

I'm not a Manziel honk, but it's a pretty damn rare QB who isn't going to make some backfoot or ill-advised throws with less than ten starts under his belt. He's clearly still in learning mode, which is to be expected.

I still would look to trade him because of the off-field/baggage issues, but he certainly showed some things that will help his value. He generally stayed in the pocket, and seem really to have improved in terms of moving his feet to find throwing lanes as opposed to just seeing/throwing over the top of the defense. That's a huge challenge for a shorter QB, and he's certainly shown progress.

If he continues what he showed his last two games, ol' JJ down in Dallas may pony up something nice in a trade.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

This is how evaluation mistakes are made.

The three teams that people point to as progress from Johnny (PIT/SF/TEN) are ranked 21st, 25th and 31st in QB rating allowed. His two horrendous games this year (NYJ/CIN) are against the teams ranked 5th and 6th respectively. What Johnny is doing is beating garbage secondaries....

..and he's beating them with garbage receivers.

Again, anyone who anoints this kid as anything is jumping the gun. But so are those who fail to see progress, or fail to remember that he came out of college after only three years, and has only 8 pro starts.

Too many minds are closed too soon.

 

[Phills14]

..and he's beating them with garbage receivers.

Again, anyone who anoints this kid as anything is jumping the gun. But so are those who fail to see progress, or fail to remember that he came out of college after only three years, and has only 8 pro starts.

Too many minds are closed too soon.

I am a staunch anti-Manziel guy but I have been that way since he was still playing at A&M. He was a fantastic college QB. That being said I never thought his talents would translate to the NFL to be a reliable starter let alone a franchise QB. I still don't. Has he played well? At time he has. He has shown the ability to be coached, that much is very clear. He's trying to do what the coaches are telling him. Does he make rookie mistakes, yes he does and that's ok. He's going to make those, a lot. My problem is not with the rookie mistakes, it's the fact that his playground style of play will never go away. He will ALWAYS throw those INTs across his body like he did yesterday. He will always think he can make that play. He will always roll out of the pocket too early and cause his WRs to play the scramble drill. He will always cause his offensive line to pickup holding calls because they have no idea where their QB is.

His natural instinct will always be to get out of the pocket too early and make something happen. I suppose I could live with that if he had 4.4 speed like Michael Vick, he does not. If he was 6'3 like Derek Carr, he is not. If he weighed more than 210 pounds, he does not. He will never be any of those things. His natural instincts are bad but could be overlooked if he had the right physical stature and athletic ability. He will never have those things. That is the reason I am not getting too high on him because he will always be at a significant physical disadvantage.

Throw in all the off the field nonsense, the addiction, the partying, the defiance, the need for attention and that is just icing on the cake. Even if he turns his life around, he's years away from gaining full trust of an organization if that is even possible.

 

[polska2211]

I am a staunch anti-Manziel guy but I have been that way since he was still playing at A&M. He was a fantastic college QB. That being said I never thought his talents would translate to the NFL to be a reliable starter let alone a franchise QB. I still don't. Has he played well? At time he has. He has shown the ability to be coached, that much is very clear. He's trying to do what the coaches are telling him. Does he make rookie mistakes, yes he does and that's ok. He's going to make those, a lot. My problem is not with the rookie mistakes, it's the fact that his playground style of play will never go away. He will ALWAYS throw those INTs across his body like he did yesterday. He will always think he can make that play. He will always roll out of the pocket too early and cause his WRs to play the scramble drill. He will always cause his offensive line to pickup holding calls because they have no idea where their QB is.

This is so hyperbolic.

Remains to be seen if he continues to make 'that' throw, but his Surface Pro Headbutt and his post game comment where he chided himself for doing it instead of trying to justify it tells me its more "old habits die hard" and less "Johnny trying to be College Johnny". We'll see the next few weeks if it comes out again or not.

I don't remember one instance yesterday where Johnny bailed out of a clean pocket, I thought his pocket presence yesterday was a night-and-day improvement over last season. There is a difference between leaving the pocket early, and leaving the pocket to try to make a play after going through your progressions because there was not anything open.

and Re: that last comment on the offensive line picking up holding calls because they have no idea where their QB is... yeah that isn't a thing.

 

[Phills14]

This is so hyperbolic.

Remains to be seen if he continues to make 'that' throw, but his Surface Pro Headbutt and his post game comment where he chided himself for doing it instead of trying to justify it tells me its more "old habits die hard" and less "Johnny trying to be College Johnny". We'll see the next few weeks if it comes out again or not.

I don't remember one instance yesterday where Johnny bailed out of a clean pocket, I thought his pocket presence yesterday was a night-and-day improvement over last season. There is a difference between leaving the pocket early, and leaving the pocket to try to make a play after going through your progressions because there was not anything open.

and Re: that last comment on the offensive line picking up holding calls because they have no idea where their QB is... yeah that isn't a thing.

You said it, old habits die hard. That was more my point than Manziel trying to be A&M Manziel. He knows what he should do, IMO he will have a hard time doing what he should do. His instincts will always be to make the wild play vs the smart play.

If you don't think it's easier for O Lines to block for a pocket passer than it is for a guy who moves around a lot you are not thinking through things.

 

[natedagg]

Apparently he graded out positive (above 0) on PFF. Anyone have that grade?

 

[Binkster]

It's been no secret that I have never had faith in Johnny's ability to play at this level coupled with off the field issues and poor measurables.

Being as objective as possible, he made some good plays yesterday and he showed poise. He was calm in the pocket and extended some plays that were blown up. He also played against arguably our worst competition on the season.

Please do not forget, as @Spectre said, that he had a few costly sacks and was bailed out of what should have been a bad safety.

He had a head-scratching interception and missed throws on a few crossing routes that should have been connected on. He held the ball far too long on more than a few occasions.

Are most of these mistakes correctable? Probably, but we are seeing old habits that continue to rear their ugly head. Most of which would be very costly against an elite defense.

I'd give him a B or B+ on the day. But he would need to be much better against a team like Seattle. And teams will start accumulating tape on the kid. He is about to receive a crash course next week.

To me, he's still not the guy. Never will be.

 

[Spectre]

..and he's beating them with garbage receivers.

Again, anyone who anoints this kid as anything is jumping the gun. But so are those who fail to see progress, or fail to remember that he came out of college after only three years, and has only 8 pro starts.

Too many minds are closed too soon.

I know we're supposed to say he's developing when he has a game that isn't awful or else we're haters and terrible fans but honestly, I just didn't see much.

Yes he was throwing to garbage receivers but many times, those guys were WIDE open. When they weren't, Johnny missed on more than a few throws into tight windows. And of the ones that looked good, many of them were 1-2 read plays that simplified decision making for him.

Meanwhile, I saw a lot of the same old flaws.

Holding onto the ball way too long (including one time that should've been a safety).

Throwing across his body (it wasn't just the pick, he did it multiple times).

Not throwing to wide open receivers (that 90 yard wheel TD to Duke he didn't even throw was either because he didn't see it or more likely, he couldn't make that throw from the pocket).

The thing is, San Fran's pass rush was so bad it minimized the amount of bad plays Johnny had. There was one play I remember specifically where our linemen had their front four so beat, Johnny could've done 10 push-ups, stood up and still made a throw. Yet even with several huge passing windows, he still made mistakes.

He does some things better but the glaring weaknesses that will get him killed against a real defense are still there. My mind isn't closed, Johnny just hasn't done anything to make me change it yet.