Kyrie Irving

[RchfldCavRaised]

I don't know why he would fit better with Jeremy Lamb if he won't pass him the ball. And if he is going to start passing the ball, he will fit even better with Waiters, so this whole discussion is a waste of time.

You and I disagree here.

Dion gets quite a pass for some passive play... including while Irving was injured.

 

[bigfoot5415]

I know that there was a contingent of Browns fans over on the Scout forums that were running auto-voting IP changing software for the entire contest to try and vote Hillis onto the cover. I can't say that alone was the reason he won but I know that it was going on and I highly doubt the rest of the country was suddenly watching the Browns and became Hillis fans overnight.

Well there were the anti-Vick fans, the PETA type people, and regular pet lovers all who did not want to see Vick on the cover. Combine that with the Cleveland fans, and you have a winner. We were probably one of a few teams that that thought, "we're already cursed anyway...whats the worst that could happen".

 

[drewvr91]

I want to keep Kyrie if he is willing to resign but I'd also like to trade him to the Magic for #4 and #12 picks. Draft Embiid #1, Exum or Smart #4, and Dougie McBuckets if he is there at #12. Kyrie is a baller but he doesn't bleed wine & gold.

 

[OptimusPrime]

You and I disagree here.

Dion gets quite a pass for some passive play... including while Irving was injured.

In context of this discussion, what passive play are you talking about? Without the ball? I don't disagree that Waiters has a lot of work to do off the ball, but he has shown the ability to play that way, spotting up, shooting off screens, backdoor cuts. He just needs to be put in that spot.

Having idiot Brown throw him out there with Earl Clark and Alonzo Gee and the rest of the second unit and having him run LeIso isn't going to help his off-ball game.

Of course, if you are implying he should be more aggressive demanding the ball and getting open, that doesn't change the fact that the point guard doesn't look for guys doing that anyway. He is looking for his shot.

 

[LuNcHBoX]

Well there were the anti-Vick fans, the PETA type people, and regular pet lovers all who did not want to see Vick on the cover. Combine that with the Cleveland fans, and you have a winner. We were probably one of a few teams that that thought, "we're already cursed anyway...whats the worst that could happen".

That makes sense, the way the Browns have been usually the draft is the super bowl so maybe the cover contest was looked at like the pro bowl and they wanted in at all costs.

 

[tsteele316]

Wait what?? I'm not justifying Kyrie turning down a max deal! I'm saying the Cavaliers should offer him one, and I think he'll sign it.

My point is that allowing Irving to get 1-year removed from free agency, playing a public game of chicken, is very dangerous. And more to your point, we do not know and cannot know if Irving would indeed be leaving money on the table! It's entirely possible that he would be compensated by going to a larger market. For some reason you think being in Cleveland is just as profitable (considering endorsements) as being in New York, on equal teams; and with that I strongly disagree.



And I go back to my point that you should read my posts, nowhere did I say Irving should leave money on the table. It's pretty obvious what I'm saying. By going to New York or Los Angeles, or to a winning franchise, Kyrie could potentially recoup those losses. Instead of considering that, you'd like to think the Cavaliers have him by the balls... They don't.



Keep harping on it? I said it once. Project much? As far as my logic being questioned, maybe you haven't realized but I love to debate points. You're talking to the wrong guy if you don't think you'll get an argument from me.

Either way, I think we've reached the point where this discussion has served it's purpose.

your entire premise and argument in this discussion is how you would walk away from the max deal if cleveland waits to offer it to him out of some misguided personal principle. and you do this, fully knowing that he will be leaving money on the table in hopes of trying to recoup it in some other fashion, through a series of points you've unsuccessfully tried to make about market size and endorsements. so, in your world if turning down $80 million guaranteed for $60 million guaranteed and the hopes of making an additional $25 million isn't leaving money on the table, then yes this discussion is over.

and, at no point did i never expect to get an argument from you. i simply pointed out making juvenile snarky comments that are inaccurate because someone disagrees with you serves zero purpose. that's not projection, that's simply pointing out the obvious.

 

[Futuredome]

In context of this discussion, what passive play are you talking about? Without the ball? I don't disagree that Waiters has a lot of work to do off the ball, but he has shown the ability to play that way, spotting up, shooting off screens, backdoor cuts. He just needs to be put in that spot.

Having idiot Brown throw him out there with Earl Clark and Alonzo Gee and the rest of the second unit and having him run LeIso isn't going to help his off-ball game.

Of course, if you are implying he should be more aggressive demanding the ball and getting open, that doesn't change the fact that the point guard doesn't look for guys doing that anyway. He is looking for his shot.

He will struggle to mea culpa moving Waiters to the bench was a mistake

 

[clebron]

I want to keep Kyrie if he is willing to resign but I'd also like to trade him to the Magic for #4 and #12 picks. Draft Embiid #1, Exum or Smart #4, and Dougie McBuckets if he is there at #12. Kyrie is a baller but he doesn't bleed wine & gold.

You are getting way too caught up in the draft...it's highly highly highly likely that Kyrie will be MUCH better than Exum and McBuckets

 

[Cashius X]

Fire Mike Brown, stop playing Tristan 30 mins a game or move him and stop trying to force the Waiters/Irving backcourt and that alone can pretty much put Irving back on the trajectory he was on before drafting Dion Waiters, then firing Byron Scott and forcing Irving to cover up for Mike Brown's inability to coach last season.

The most contentious point of the 3, is the Waiters Irving match... which I still believe is not optimal for either player.

Personality-wise, skill-wise, any-wise... Dion is too alpha and irrationally confident and Kyrie is trying to find that alpha in himself while being supremely more talented than Dion still.

Its a bad match that will be a bad match on the court unless Dion is convinced to play that 6th man role for life. Its not a position thing for me, its a skillset redundancy with a conflict of character in their personalities that wont allow them to mix with where each of them need to develop most and mature most.

Having a new offensive coach and a new defensive anchor COULD help, but Im more inclined to say there are still better matches for running mates for both guys and its still early enough where we dont have to keep playing with fire.

I like your posts but I really find your opinions concerning Dion to be so archaic. If anything, Dion proved last season that the disparity between him and Kyrie isn't as pronounced as people previously thought. Or rather let me put it like this: Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard. Is Kyrie more talented than Dion? Sure. But I would argue that Dion has shown that he can impact games in more areas, and more effectively than Kyrie.

Furthermore, I see no reason why Dion and Kyrie can't or shouldn't start together. Because their games are too redundant? That's bullshit. We're not talking about starting 2 Ricky Rubio type players on the court or 2 Rajon Rondo type players. We're talking about starting 2 do-it all combo guards. Their redundancy is something we should embrace. Both guys space the floor by being great shooters. Both guys are elite at penetrating. And both guys excel at creating offense for themselves and their teammates (when they feel like it :chuckles. Collectively, this backcourt has a very high ceiling and could accomplish a lot given the chance.

Just by being on the court together these guys make each other's job so much easier. I forgot who said it, but I remember hearing a quote mid-season from when Kyrie and Dion were in a meeting together with the goal being trying to get them both on the same page. In the meeting some FO personnel told them, "You two could make each other a lot of money if you learn how to play together" and that sentiment still rings true.

We shouldn't shut the door on this pairing before even seeing if it'll work. We've tried it sporadically but have never been steadfast enough in our dedication to make things work to employ them in the starting lineup for an extended period of time. I really hope with this coming season we start both for an extended period of time and don't waver unless it is clear that we're not seeing more cohesiveness between them than when we started our experiment. Then, and only then, will I be open to the idea of relegating Dion to a sixth man role or exploring trades for another SG. As it stands, I think Dion is the perfect SG for a PG like Kyrie and I won't think otherwise until I see with my own two eyes that this experiment fails.

 

[DELONTEizDad]

I'm saying it. The passive aggressive "haha all white people are racist" take is fucking annoying and is exactly what rational people want out of society.

Grow up.

You live in the reality that it didn't have anything to do with it?

 

[sailfish]

I want to keep Kyrie if he is willing to resign but I'd also like to trade him to the Magic for #4 and #12 picks. Draft Embiid #1, Exum or Smart #4, and Dougie McBuckets if he is there at #12. Kyrie is a baller but he doesn't bleed wine & gold.

McBuckets reminds me of Luke Jackson...no thanks. I would, however, trade Kyrie to Orlando for the #4 pick & Tobias Harris or Mo Harkless.

 

[TheAdmin]

You don't trade a talent like Irving until you're forced to and when that day comes you don't trade him for an unknown quantity like a draft pick.

 

[Simon]

But people who hate Kyrie are going to panic that we aren't trading him :chuckles:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>We knew that the Cavs were taking calls on Irving about 10 or so days ago (if you read RCF) but that means nothing. Don't panic.</p>&mdash; realcavsfans.com (@realcavsfans) <a href="https://twitter.com/realcavsfans/statuses/473592553720512512">June 2, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[mcfly]

You don't trade a talent like Irving until you're forced to and when that day comes you don't trade him for an unknown quantity like a draft pick.

It is puzzling how many people feel the organization would proactively/prematurely put themselves in a position to take a clear step backwards.

 

[melecoaze]

Yeah, just what we need to get to the playoffs is an unproven rookie and Mo Harkless.