Kyrie Irving

[MirORich]

It's really puzzling/amusing to see people so way off on the perceived value of Kyrie in terms of what would be offered if a team wanted the Cavs to seriously engage in conversations.

 

[MoFlo]

Fire Mike Brown, stop playing Tristan 30 mins a game or move him and stop trying to force the Waiters/Irving backcourt and that alone can pretty much put Irving back on the trajectory he was on before drafting Dion Waiters, then firing Byron Scott and forcing Irving to cover up for Mike Brown's inability to coach last season.

The most contentious point of the 3, is the Waiters Irving match... which I still believe is not optimal for either player.

Personality-wise, skill-wise, any-wise... Dion is too alpha and irrationally confident and Kyrie is trying to find that alpha in himself while being supremely more talented than Dion still.

Its a bad match that will be a bad match on the court unless Dion is convinced to play that 6th man role for life. Its not a position thing for me, its a skillset redundancy with a conflict of character in their personalities that wont allow them to mix with where each of them need to develop most and mature most.

Having a new offensive coach and a new defensive anchor COULD help, but Im more inclined to say there are still better matches for running mates for both guys and its still early enough where we dont have to keep playing with fire.

I see what you're saying, however:

1.) They've gone through 2 coaches in 2 & 3 years in the league. As you alluded to, it could (and probably would) help a ton if they got some stability & a better offensive coach.

2.) Is it only because they're both score 1st combo guards? Or will Kyrie act like this with any alpha? That's my worry.

3.) The better solution, IMO, would be to have Dion run the offense. Of course, you run the risk of Kyrie pouting, but it makes so much sense that it's scary. Dion has shown more flashes of driving & kicking than Kyrie has, Kyrie will be insane playing off the ball (both spotting up & cutting), and Kyrie has more of a tendency to think too much with the ball.

 

[drewvr91]

You don't trade a talent like Irving until you're forced to and when that day comes you don't trade him for an unknown quantity like a draft pick.

I don't want to trade Irving and I think with us winning the lottery it should encourage him with the direction the team is headed. If forced to trade him at least its in a talented draft. I'd contact 76ers first about #3 & #10 for Kyrie because a Embiid/Wiggins or Embiid/Parker combo IMO would not be bad compensation for Irving but I cant see the 76ers doing that which is why I went with #4 & #12 from Magic. The bottom line is I hope that Irving is on board because I love the Irving/Waiters backcourt.

 

[Tornicade]

You and I disagree here.

Dion gets quite a pass for some passive play... including while Irving was injured.

Woah woah ....
Passive play? first he was to aggressive and irrationally confident , now you on him for lining up at the perimeter like a SG is supposed to?

Team with Waiters and without Irving since febuary 1st.

545 minutes 1.096 PPP opponent 1.064 PPP 60.7 Assist percentage.

Irving on Waiters off
639 Minutes. 1.093 PPP opponent 1.104 PPP 61.4% Asisst Percentage.

Both On
343 Minutes 1.056 PPP Opponent 1.097 PPP 54.5% Assist Percentage.

Pace wise though both Irving and Waiters have a sub 92 pace when the other isnt on the floor
94 pace when both are on the floor.

Both Off
Pace 97.1 210 minutes 1.08 PPP Opponent 1.077 PP 66% assist percentage.


the team also shoots 47.1 FG, when Irvign a Waiters is off the floor 44% when both are on. 44.6 when Irving on waiters off and 46/1% when Irving off and Waiters on.

BTW the top Scorer when Irving and Waiters were both off the court was Jarret Jack and Tyler Zeller (60.4% true shot at 1.21 PPP
Also Tristan Bennett, AV and Hawes all had good point per play rates without Irvign or waiters on the court.

I did an overall lineup pullup from 02/01/2014 and some may be surprised by the results.

http://nbawowy.com/query/ld6j3l1haaq#/ld6j3l1haaq

Both Dion and Irving need to trust their teammates to score and trusting the offense

 

[Dr. Claw]

Irving doesn't fit with anybody. That is the point, you will not accept and it is destructive.

So his rookie year or his time at Duke doesn't count? There was a reason he was drafted #1, even with Chris Grant picking

 

[Soda]

So his rookie year or his time at Duke doesn't count? There was a reason he was drafted #1, even with Chris Grant picking

I loved Duke Kyrie and I screamed when we drafted him. Hell, I still like him a lot..

However... You couldn't have watched his limited time at Duke. If you did, you'd have seen the AAU "all me" game in him from day one.

 

[getBUCKED]

I loved Duke Kyrie and I screamed when we drafted him. Hell, I still like him a lot..

However... You couldn't have watched his limited time at Duke. If you did, you'd have seen the AAU "all me" game in him from day one.

This is pure fabrication..I watched him play every game at Duke and he was far from an "all me" selfish player. First of all, Coach K doesn't let you play that way and Kyrie fully bought in during his short stint. He also took over in big games and adjusted to what his team needed from him at the time whether it was scoring or creating. Yes he may have tried to score too much at times, but that's who he is as a player. He gets buckets with ease. Coming out of Duke scouts were even touting him as a "plus defender" :chuckles:

Solid defender with adequate size. Gets low, fundamental, doesn’t gamble too often.

Defensively he plays aggressive on ball defense, showing quick footwork and the ability to stay in front of his man with a high motor and high intensity

Defensively, Irving won't have any problems from a physical standpoint in the NBA, as he has good size, strength and lateral quickness, even if his wingspan probably won't measure out off the charts. He's already way ahead of where most freshman are on this end of the court too, as he plays with good intensity, has excellent fundamentals, and shows great timing jumping in the passing lanes. Like all freshmen, he has some issues defending off the ball and can get impatient coming out of his stance in long possessions, but these are minor qualms that can and likely will be corrected playing under one of the most respected coaches in all of basketball.

Just saying that he was (and still is IMO) headed for the top point guard spot. I think Cleveland as an organization has indeed mismanaged him to a point, but you can tell he is maturing. While I do agree he does have selfish tendencies in the NBA due to his individual accolades and lack of legit scoring talent around him, I think we see a much more focused Kyrie after he signs the max extension this summer and shuts everybody up here once and for all.

 

[Pioneer10]

The problem was not Dion and Kyrie. It was Bynum Jack and brown in no particular order. Dion played just fine when he was paired with Delly and he was getting minutes even when Kyrie was healthy and playing better towards the end of the year.

Having a coach who can read a plus minus chart will do wonders next year. Less Clark Jack gee etc

 

[TheAdmin]

On a side note one of the more surreal moments I've had is debating this very topic with Bo Koster, the keyboardist for My Morning Jacket. I didn't expect him to be such a knowledgeable fan.

 

[The Edge]

Great band.
That's great, what was his take Ben?

 

[TheAdmin]

Great band.
That's great, what was his take Ben?

That you can't give a max contract to Irving due to his lack of defense and ability to make players around him better. Pointed out he plays like Marbury and Francis. He believes the Cavs should trade Irving and get good young talent now before he's exposed as a me first player.

I countered with Irving's age (22) and the fact that even if the Cavs sign him to a max contract now they could easily trade him later for a better return then just trading him now because he would be locked up for 4 or more years. Kevin Love's value is low because he's a rental. If he had another 4 years on his contract his value would be exponentially better.

 

[godfather]

That you can't give a max contract to Irving due to his lack of defense and ability to make players around him better. Pointed out he plays like Marbury and Francis. He believes the Cavs should trade Irving and get good young talent now before he's exposed as a me first player.

I countered with Irving's age (22) and the fact that even if the Cavs sign him to a max contract now they could easily trade him later for a better return then just trading him now because he would be locked up for 4 or more years. Kevin Love's value is low because he's a rental. If he had another 4 years on his contract his value would be exponentially better.

Great point. Locking Kyrie up long-term is nothing but a win-win, because the Cavs keep the leverage for once. Even if they're not sold on him, his value on the market goes up. If Kyrie ends up wanting out, and refusing to sign an extension, then that's just a loss for the Cavs. It's nearly impossible to get equal value for him if that ends up being the case.

 

[DatDudeZ3]

The obvious smart move here is to just sign him to the max for many reasons... We would look like absolute fools to let him go, especially when he's wrecking the league in a couple years.

 

[Cavatt]

The problem was not Dion and Kyrie. It was Bynum Jack and brown in no particular order. Dion played just fine when he was paired with Delly and he was getting minutes even when Kyrie was healthy and playing better towards the end of the year.

Having a coach who can read a plus minus chart will do wonders next year. Less Clark Jack gee etc

I think the thing they proved at the end of the year is that the most important thing for this team is that they need to learn to play together. Once they were really behind the playoff push, I thought they played like they should have in December. I just hope some of that consistency can carry over.

Even as hard as I am on Kyrie, he had some really good games near the end where he and Dion played pretty good together.

 

[Photon]

Trade him for Goran Dragić :chuckles: (jk/ but seriously if he fucks around with extension, multiteam trade and get Gogi and some talented wing for him). Slovenian on my Cavs -getitduuuun.