Kyrie Irving

[dark2332]

Why would you trade KI for an unproven college player? No way that is enough, I think you would need 3 and 10 to even get griffin on the phone. People buy into this potential way to much on the board. We have a 22 year old all star.

In also think to many people live in fantasy nba 2k world, and forget about the business side of the cavs. KI is a face of the franchise type player, is very likable, marketable, and is a name that draws in fans. It would be a PR nightmare to trade him unless we got an equal level talent or star back.

Yeah, why would you trade Kyrie for an unproven rookie.... When you can trade him for twooooooo unproven rookies. MCW was rookie of the year, he's no slouch.


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[Soar]

Yeah, why would you trade Kyrie for an unproven rookie.... When you can trade him for twooooooo unproven rookies. MCW was rookie of the year, he's no slouch.


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That isn't saying much considering that draft class.

 

[VandyCavsFan]

Yeah, why would you trade Kyrie for an unproven rookie.... When you can trade him for twooooooo unproven rookies. MCW was rookie of the year, he's no slouch.


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MCW is seriously terrible, he won the RoTY by being less terrible and injured than his draftmates and basically the only truly above average thing he does is get lots of rebounds for a guard.

 

[Cashius X]

MCW is seriously terrible, he won the RoTY by being less terrible and injured than his draftmates and basically the only truly above average thing he does is get lots of rebounds for a guard.

This post is terrible.

 

[VandyCavsFan]

This post is terrible.

Name one thing MCW does well. I guess he has high defensive potential as well with his length but that's it. He's disgustingly inefficient and his playmaking is solid but not amazing considering he basically handled the ball the entire time for the 76ers. He's also a 4 year college player who came into the league at 22 years old so he barely has the excuse of being raw and inexperienced. The guy is insanely overrated

Edit: I guess terrible was hyperbole but he's not very good

 

[tristan+kyrie=$]

MCW is a solid NBA point guard but I would be lying if he reaches the same stratoshpere as a player that I believe Kyrie will reach with a coach who actually maximizes his unique and fully loaded skill set

 

[Cashius X]

Name one thing MCW does well. I guess he has high defensive potential as well with his length but that's it. He's disgustingly inefficient and his playmaking is solid but not amazing considering he basically handled the ball the entire time for the 76ers. He's also a 4 year college player who came into the league at 22 years old so he barely has the excuse of being raw and inexperienced. The guy is insanely overrated

Edit: I guess terrible was hyperbole but he's not very good

He came into the league as a project. Everyone knew he didn't have a jump shot which contributed greatly to his poor FG%. He has great size for the PG position. He sees the floor well as evidenced by his good assist totals even though he plays on an offensively inept 76ers team. He's already one of the best rebounders at his position and he's already elite in terms of getting steals.

Also while he is "old" for a rookie he's not a 4 year college player like you said. In fact he only played extensive minutes during one of his years at Syracuse. He's still got a lot o room for improvement. No reason why he can't patch up the holes in his game.

To call him "terrible" is "terrible" in itself. He should be an elite PG one day. He's well on his way to having a great career.

 

[D10S]

Look folks, Kyrie is a special talent. What we're arguing about, it seems, is whether it's possible to turn him around.

Some argue that Kyrie's tendencies are innate. That is, they cannot be changed, modified, or reconciled through coaching. Others do not go as far. While not addressing this issue directly, the underlying assumption of their remarks seems to imply that the Cavs do not have access to a coach who possesses the capabilities to cultivate such a change.

What does not seem to be up for debate is Kyrie's skills, the qualities that made him the number 1 pick. The bottom line is that Kyrie's offensive abilities are not really questioned. His willingness to buy into an overall offensive philosophy, to commit on defense, is. So, we are left contemplating the ability of the organization, and the organization's culture, to develop the qualities in Kyrie that we seek.

This is a far bigger and more complex question, I fear.

 

[Ecmic]

MCW is seriously terrible, he won the RoTY by being less terrible and injured than his draftmates and basically the only truly above average thing he does is get lots of rebounds for a guard.

He also was first among all point guards in blocks (and rebounds, as you mentioned) third in steals, top 5 in fouls drawn, and 11th in assists.

I think Irving is a legitimate building block (but not a cornerstone). However, if you can trade him for Wiggins, MCW, and ~$7 million a year in cap room starting in 2015, I think you do it.

 

[Soar]

We aren't trading Kyrie. Gilbert wants to win now.

And while I'm questioning Gilbert more than I have in the past, I highly doubt he would sign off on trading a proven talent in Kyrie for less proven talent.

The only way the idea of trading Kyrie is entertained by the Cavs is if some proven mega talent combo will be coming to Cleveland. Otherwise, it doesn't make much sense.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

And while I'm questioning Gilbert more than I have in the past, I highly doubt he would sign off on trading a proven talent in Kyrie for less proven talent.

Being the more known quantity is not always a good thing. Kyrie has "proven" so far that he is either unable or unwilling to play NBA quality defense. While we is still an incredibly talented guy, that is a serious problem. And projecting that KI will get significantly better on defense despite what he's shown in his first 3 years is arguably even more speculative than talking about what a rookie might accomplish.

 

[Mr. MacPhisto]

No doubt that MCW isn't as efficient as Kyrie. They are already on par as far as assists. MCW is a better rebounder than Kyrie. Kyrie is a better shooter (kind of important for a ball dominant guard). Kyrie is MUCH better from the charity stripe. MCW is better at blocking and stealing.

Overall, there's no doubt that Kyrie is the better player who could (and should) be the best PG in the NBA with proper coaching and the proper effort on his part.

All that said, there are many questions going forward. I think if they present Kyrie with a max extension and he signs it, the discussion changes.

I was more interested in looking at how highly different people valued Kyrie. You certainly know what Kyrie's NBA floor is (around 20PPG, 6 APG, 3.5 RPG and around .450 shooting). We have yet to see Kyrie's ceiling and I hope we do.

However, if someone offered a deal that would blow me away, I'd be willing to deal.

 

[OptimusPrime]

The only thing Carter-Williams does better than Irving is defend, and everyone is a better defender than Irving. MCW is an ok passer, terrible shooter, good rebounder. He is a decent all around player. Pointing to his assist numbers means little to me because he always had the ball in his hands. Of course he was going to have assists. He doesn't have the vision Irving does. He will never be the shooter Irving is. I don't know if he will ever be an acceptable shooter that I would want him on my team. If the choice is Irving or Carter-Williams I take Kyrie every time.

But the choice between Wiggins and Irving, I would take Wiggins. Irving or Parker, I take Irving. So for me to make that deal I have to know Wiggins will be there at 3. Then I would try to move MCW.

 

[Ecmic]

The only thing Carter-Williams does better than Irving is defend, and everyone is a better defender than Irving. MCW is an ok passer, terrible shooter, good rebounder. He is a decent all around player. Pointing to his assist numbers means little to me because he always had the ball in his hands. Of course he was going to have assists. He doesn't have the vision Irving does. He will never be the shooter Irving is. I don't know if he will ever be an acceptable shooter that I would want him on my team. If the choice is Irving or Carter-Williams I take Kyrie every time.

But the choice between Wiggins and Irving, I would take Wiggins. Irving or Parker, I take Irving. So for me to make that deal I have to know Wiggins will be there at 3. Then I would try to move MCW.

I think Carter-Williams will legitimately be a better defender than Irving, but it's important to distinguish being a good defender from leading all point guards in blocks and being third in the league in steals. They're just a few things he happens to do REALLY well, but don't necessarily equate to a quality defense. Blocks and steals should be judged outside of the scope of just general defense. We wouldn't discount Irving's offensive game by saying the only thing he does better than MCW is play offense without looking at specific aspects of the offensive game.
I would say he also rebounds better than Irving on both ends of the floor. I don't think that even needs to be said at this point. He's also a legit distributor. He was third in the nation in assists his one year playing any type of minutes in college. The only two players ahead of him were from scrub schools, so all things considered he was probably the best distributor in college his sophomore year. Too many turnovers though, which mitigates his distribution prowess somewhat.
I'd say beyond just defense, MCW is better than Irving in blocking, stealing, and rebounding the ball. I'd say their ball distribution is about equal at this point; I've never totally bought into the idea of Irving as a player with great court vision. Due to his physical advantages, I do think in the long run MCW will overtake Irving in this area. Everything else, Irving has the decided edge.
All that said, you have to take Irving over MCW at this stage. Throw in Wiggins and a large chunk of cap space? That's a different story. In this scenario I think you wouldn't try to move MCW, because he plays at a saturated position and would probably bring back less value than he's worth. And he's on an amazing contract.

 

[Cavsfan1985]

The thing with any of these ideas, is why would the other team do it? Why would teams in the bottom 3 trade players who will have 4 years of cheap contracts for KI. If you say because he is a star, then why the hell would we want to trade him?