Kyrie Irving

[CosmoKramer]

As already mentioned, salary cap is an issue there. From a talent standpoint, however, you're absolutely right. CP3 makes those around him better -- Irving doesn't. Irving compares closer to Marbury than CP3. Unless Irving improves drastically, there won't be a Big 3 -- just a Big 2 and an overrated 1.

Improves drastically? Then I guess we have two completely different ideas of how good Kyrie Irving is, because in my opinion if he "improves drastically" we'd be looking at the greatest scoring point guard of the modern era. We have to remember Kyrie is still a young NBA player, he's still younger than last year's Rookie of the Year. And despite only being 22-years-old Kyrie is already an established 20-point scorer, can we appreciate how rare it is to be that productive through your first three seasons? The short list of guards from the last twenty years includes Allen Iverson, Vince Carter, Dwayne Wade, Derrick Rose, and Kyrie Irving. "Big 2 and overrated 1?" Stop with that weak shit.

The Irving/Marbury comparison has been gone over before, but the numbers [per-36,(FG/3FG/FT/TS)] of their age 20-21 seasons look different than you'd think, especially with CP3 thrown in there.

Paul: 16.5 points on 12.7 FGA (43/31/84/54), 8.2 assists, 4.7 rebounds, 2.0 steals, 0.1 blocks, 2.4 turnovers

Marbury: 16.6 points on 14.0 FGA (41/33/73/51), 8.1 assists, 2.7 rebounds, 1.1 steals, 0.2 blocks, 3.1 turnovers

Irving: 22.7 points on 18.1 FGA (46/39/86/56), 6.2 assists, 4.1 rebounds, 1.4 steals, 0.4 blocks, 3.5 turnovers
​

So, is Kyrie closer to Marbury than CP3? In some areas, but he was just a completely different point guard than either of the two. He was in another league as a scorer, showcasing the most efficient game with a dangerous 3-point shot. From that point on Chris Paul improved his deep shooting over the years to become the NBA's most complete point guard, while Marbury made minimal improvements as a shooter and defender over time. Marbury was the quintessential empty stats guy, with his numbers peaking in New Jersey on underachieving 31-win and 26-win teams. Swap Marbury with Jason Kidd and the Nets immediately go to two straight Finals.

There's a reason in three seasons Kyrie's already matched the number of All-Star games Marbury made in his entire 13-year career, he's just a better player. Chris Paul was the more complete point guard at this age, but I'm really expecting Kyrie's defense and distribution skills to look significantly better next year next to LeBron/Love. He won't reach CP3 levels in a year, but both his on-ball defense and assist to turnover ratio improved greatly last season alone.

The numbers really prove over his first three seasons Kyrie has been one of the highest scoring, most efficient guards to enter the NBA in a long time. He's already logged as many 20-point seasons (2) as Paul has in nine seasons, and Paul's career high in PPG (22.8) barely clips Kyrie's (22.5). With a continued upwards trajectory I see no reason Kyrie can't have a couple 20/10 seasons like Paul had, it's not unreasonable given the weapons he'll be working with in the coming years.

Again, just my opinion, but I think Kyrie is already one of the five most talented players LeBron will have ever played with. IMO calling our Big 3 anything but that is ridiculous, LeBron(29), Love(25), and Kyrie(22) might be the best young triumvirate the NBA has seen since the early 80's when Boston had Bird(23), McHale(22), and Parish(27) entering the season. That led to five Finals appearances in a seven year span, resulting in another three titles for Beantown. Our Big 3 let's us dream that big as well, although I swear I'll be happy with one title!

 

[CavsFTW]

Can't wait for the season to start so I can stop reading this nonsense.

Kyrie Irving will be the Point Guard of as well as the go to guy in crunch time on the best basketball team in the world this year.

Kyrie may be the point guard, but he'll be playing alongside arguably the greatest point forward in NBA history. The only way the ball is coming out of LeBron's hands during regulation or crunchtime is to pass it to an open teammate.

I couldn't care less what kind of Rondo assists, points per game, WARP, PER or any other of those crazy stats he grades out in.

Of course not. Let's not let facts get in the way of personal beliefs.

 

[cavsfan21]

In the last scrimmage there were probably 5 trips in a row down the court where he simply just dumped the ball into Cousins, whom Plumlee was matched up with.

I've read that one of Blatt's greatest strengths is exploiting mismatches. I think he and Kyrie are really going to be able to see eye to eye in that regard (as well as many others). Over the years as he's played on the big stage he's excelled at this. Whether it's been getting Melo open for an All-Star game 3 point record or giving it to the best post player on the court 5 times in a row, he understands the game.

I think people may be underestimating how much growth Coach K is going to help him attain over this whole USA Basketball experience, especially now that he may be the best player and starting point guard on the team.

 

[Cavsengland]

Improves drastically? Then I guess we have two completely different ideas of how good Kyrie Irving is, because in my opinion if he "improves drastically" we'd be looking at the greatest scoring point guard of the modern era. We have to remember Kyrie is still a young NBA player, he's still younger than last year's Rookie of the Year. And despite only being 22-years-old Kyrie is already an established 20-point scorer, can we appreciate how rare it is to be that productive through your first three seasons? The short list of guards from the last twenty years includes Allen Iverson, Vince Carter, Dwayne Wade, Derrick Rose, and Kyrie Irving. "Big 2 and overrated 1?" Stop with that weak shit.

The Irving/Marbury comparison has been gone over before, but the numbers [per-36,(FG/3FG/FT/TS)] of their age 20-21 seasons look different than you'd think, especially with CP3 thrown in there.

Paul: 16.5 points on 12.7 FGA (43/31/84/54), 8.2 assists, 4.7 rebounds, 2.0 steals, 0.1 blocks, 2.4 turnovers

Marbury: 16.6 points on 14.0 FGA (41/33/73/51), 8.1 assists, 2.7 rebounds, 1.1 steals, 0.2 blocks, 3.1 turnovers

Irving: 22.7 points on 18.1 FGA (46/39/86/56), 6.2 assists, 4.1 rebounds, 1.4 steals, 0.4 blocks, 3.5 turnovers
​

So, is Kyrie closer to Marbury than CP3? In some areas, but he was just a completely different point guard than either of the two. He was in another league as a scorer, showcasing the most efficient game with a dangerous 3-point shot. From that point on Chris Paul improved his deep shooting over the years to become the NBA's most complete point guard, while Marbury made minimal improvements as a shooter and defender over time. Marbury was the quintessential empty stats guy, with his numbers peaking in New Jersey on underachieving 31-win and 26-win teams. Swap Marbury with Jason Kidd and the Nets immediately go to two straight Finals.

There's a reason in three seasons Kyrie's already matched the number of All-Star games Marbury made in his entire 13-year career, he's just a better player. Chris Paul was the more complete point guard at this age, but I'm really expecting Kyrie's defense and distribution skills to look significantly better next year next to LeBron/Love. He won't reach CP3 levels in a year, but both his on-ball defense and assist to turnover ratio improved greatly last season alone.

The numbers really prove over his first three seasons Kyrie has been one of the highest scoring, most efficient guards to enter the NBA in a long time. He's already logged as many 20-point seasons (2) as Paul has in nine seasons, and Paul's career high in PPG (22.8) barely clips Kyrie's (22.5). With a continued upwards trajectory I see no reason Kyrie can't have a couple 20/10 seasons like Paul had, it's not unreasonable given the weapons he'll be working with in the coming years.

Again, just my opinion, but I think Kyrie is already one of the five most talented players LeBron will have ever played with. IMO calling our Big 3 anything but that is ridiculous, LeBron(29), Love(25), and Kyrie(22) might be the best young triumvirate the NBA has seen since the early 80's when Boston had Bird(23), McHale(22), and Parish(27) entering the season. That led to five Finals appearances in a seven year span, resulting in another three titles for Beantown. Our Big 3 let's us dream that big as well, although I swear I'll be happy with one title!

Great post.

 

[CavsFTW]

Improves drastically? Then I guess we have two completely different ideas of how good Kyrie Irving is, because in my opinion if he "improves drastically" we'd be looking at the greatest scoring point guard of the modern era. We have to remember Kyrie is still a young NBA player, he's still younger than last year's Rookie of the Year. And despite only being 22-years-old Kyrie is already an established 20-point scorer, can we appreciate how rare it is to be that productive through your first three seasons? The short list of guards from the last twenty years includes Allen Iverson, Vince Carter, Dwayne Wade, Derrick Rose, and Kyrie Irving. "Big 2 and overrated 1?" Stop with that weak shit.

The Irving/Marbury comparison has been gone over before, but the numbers [per-36,(FG/3FG/FT/TS)] of their age 20-21 seasons look different than you'd think, especially with CP3 thrown in there.

Paul: 16.5 points on 12.7 FGA (43/31/84/54), 8.2 assists, 4.7 rebounds, 2.0 steals, 0.1 blocks, 2.4 turnovers

Marbury: 16.6 points on 14.0 FGA (41/33/73/51), 8.1 assists, 2.7 rebounds, 1.1 steals, 0.2 blocks, 3.1 turnovers

Irving: 22.7 points on 18.1 FGA (46/39/86/56), 6.2 assists, 4.1 rebounds, 1.4 steals, 0.4 blocks, 3.5 turnovers
​

So, is Kyrie closer to Marbury than CP3? In some areas, but he was just a completely different point guard than either of the two. He was in another league as a scorer, showcasing the most efficient game with a dangerous 3-point shot. From that point on Chris Paul improved his deep shooting over the years to become the NBA's most complete point guard, while Marbury made minimal improvements as a shooter and defender over time. Marbury was the quintessential empty stats guy, with his numbers peaking in New Jersey on underachieving 31-win and 26-win teams. Swap Marbury with Jason Kidd and the Nets immediately go to two straight Finals.

There's a reason in three seasons Kyrie's already matched the number of All-Star games Marbury made in his entire 13-year career, he's just a better player. Chris Paul was the more complete point guard at this age, but I'm really expecting Kyrie's defense and distribution skills to look significantly better next year next to LeBron/Love. He won't reach CP3 levels in a year, but both his on-ball defense and assist to turnover ratio improved greatly last season alone.

The numbers really prove over his first three seasons Kyrie has been one of the highest scoring, most efficient guards to enter the NBA in a long time. He's already logged as many 20-point seasons (2) as Paul has in nine seasons, and Paul's career high in PPG (22.8) barely clips Kyrie's (22.5). With a continued upwards trajectory I see no reason Kyrie can't have a couple 20/10 seasons like Paul had, it's not unreasonable given the weapons he'll be working with in the coming years.

Again, just my opinion, but I think Kyrie is already one of the five most talented players LeBron will have ever played with. IMO calling our Big 3 anything but that is ridiculous, LeBron(29), Love(25), and Kyrie(22) might be the best young triumvirate the NBA has seen since the early 80's when Boston had Bird(23), McHale(22), and Parish(27) entering the season. That led to five Finals appearances in a seven year span, resulting in another three titles for Beantown. Our Big 3 let's us dream that big as well, although I swear I'll be happy with one title!

I appreciate your effort and enjoyed reading your comparison to Marbury regarding the difference in his and Kyrie's stats, but you also stated the following:

"Marbury was the quintessential empty stats guy"

Which I also appreciated because you just made my argument for me. For everything Marbury added on offense, he gave it back and then some on defense. That's the very definition of a "quintessential empty stats guy", which is exactly the kind of player Kyrie Irving's been during his 3 years here. Compared to the Big 3 difference-makers of the recent past (Garnett, Pierce, Allen) and (James, Wade, Bosh), Irving simply doesn't belong. Unlike those players, LeBron, and Love, Kyrie's never been an elite difference-maker or even a particularly good one.

 

[amil99]

I could've swore KG/Pierce/ Allen were on 30 win lottery teams the year before they teamed up.

 

[CosmoKramer]

I appreciate your effort and enjoyed reading your comparison to Marbury regarding the difference in his and Kyrie's stats, but you also stated the following:

"Marbury was the quintessential empty stats guy"

Which I also appreciated because you just made my argument for me. For everything Marbury added on offense, he gave it back and then some on defense. That's the very definition of a "quintessential empty stats guy", which is exactly the kind of player Kyrie Irving's been during his 3 years here. Compared to the Big 3 difference-makers of the recent past (Garnett, Pierce, Allen) and (James, Wade, Bosh), Irving simply doesn't belong. Unlike those players, LeBron, and Love, Kyrie's never been an elite difference-maker or even a particularly good one.

Irving simply doesn't belong because he's easily the youngest on that list, a point I raised repeatedly in the previous post that you completely ignored. Look at the ages of the other Big 3's-

Kyrie Irving: 22-years-old

LeBron James: 26-years-old
Chris Bosh: 26-years-old
Dwyane Wade: 29-years-old

Paul Pierce: 29-years-old
Kevin Garnett: 31-years-old
Ray Allen: 32-years-old

...Kyrie's four years younger than any of the Miami Big 3 and seven years younger than the youngest member of Boston's Big 3. That's supposed to be your point?

We're also talking about the only point guard on that list, a position that places a higher value on offensive abilities. Tony Parker and Steve Nash are two of the best point guards of the last decade and neither are strong defenders. Kyrie was absolutely terrible on defense his first two seasons before showing slight improvements last year, he's not the lost cause that Marbury was his entire career. Kyrie is not an empty stats player, as much as you'd like to believe.

 

[Pioneer10]

By both team winning percentage and every adjusted +/, Kyrie has been any empty stats player. His defense was just that bad last year.
He's young and I do think young players can improve on defense (Love has gone from bad to average on defense. Don't think he's physically capable of being a plus defender due to lack of shotblocking ability) so it's not an indictment for his future but call a spade a spade.

http://stats.nba.com/teamLineups.ht...ield=PLUS_MINUS&sortOrder=DES&GroupQuantity=2

Look at the 2 man lineups: Kyrie is only in one of the top 2 man units in entire first page and one in the entire second page as well!
This is why a guy like Delly who has nowhere near the talent particularly on offense like Irving has as a decent RAPM while Irving is just not good. His defense was just bad last year regardless of what minimal incremental he made last year.

The best thing to happen to Irving now is that he doesn't have to worry about running a team or conserving energy so there should be no excuses this year. Even becoming on average on defense would be a big step for him

 

[Cavsengland]

By both team winning percentage and every adjusted +/, Kyrie has been any empty stats player. His defense was just that bad last year.
He's young and I do think young players can improve on defense (Love has gone from bad to average on defense. Don't think he's physically capable of being a plus defender due to lack of shotblocking ability) so it's not an indictment for his future but call a spade a spade.

http://stats.nba.com/teamLineups.ht...ield=PLUS_MINUS&sortOrder=DES&GroupQuantity=2

Look at the 2 man lineups: Kyrie is only in one of the top 2 man units in entire first page and one in the entire second page as well!
This is why a guy like Delly who has nowhere near the talent particularly on offense like Irving has as a decent RAPM while Irving is just not good. His defense was just bad last year regardless of what minimal incremental he made last year.

The best thing to happen to Irving now is that he doesn't have to worry about running a team or conserving energy so there should be no excuses this year. Even becoming on average on defense would be a big step for him

Yeah defensively he needs to improve big time.

He did look pretty good defensively in the scrimmage however. (small sample size but still looked good)

 

[cavsfan21]

If there is in fact an empty stats guy in our lineup or big 3, it's not Kyrie Irving.

Not once have you ever even heard him talk about his stats.

 

[Tornicade]

If there is in fact an empty stats guy in our lineup or big 3, it's not Kyrie Irving.

Not once have you ever even heard him talk about his stats.

yes when Waiters says guys... not just himself but guys. need to stop worrying about their stats im sure he was just talking about everyone but Irving.

not to mention just because he doesn't talk about stats doesn't mean its not a motivation.

What you did hear is irving being happy with his play after multiple losses where he had a statistical solid
production

Irving was 8th in efficiency amongst point guards last season by hoopstats formula.

He was 30-32 in efficiency wise in his matchups and those 30 wins the Cavs were 17 -13 compared to 6-26 on the 32 match ups he lost.

The previous season irving was 32-24 matchup wise and his rookie season 27-12 eficiency wise.

NBA figured out Irving can be exploited on one side of the court and took advantage.

Theres also another factor.. In Kyrie's rookie year he was often bailed out by Anthony Parker.

In his 2nd year rookie Dion Waiter would often which assignments .

Irvings third year Waiters was mostly guarding the 2 or 3 and CJ didnt cover for him.

Irving last season the team was 6 points worse defensively whenever Irving was on the floor compared to 2 points the season before.

the team overall was better defensively last season but Irving showed no improvement still seeing the team give up 111 per 100 possessions .

 

[Cavsengland]

yes when Waiters says guys... not just himself but guys. need to stop owrrying about their stats im sure he was just talking about everyone but Irving.

not to mention just because he doesnt talk about stats doesnt mean its not a motivation.

What you did hear is irving being happy with his play after multiple losses where he had a statistical solid
production

Irving was 8th in efficiency amongst point guards last season by hoopstats formula.

He was 30-32 in efficiency wise in his matchups and those 30 wins the Cavs were 17 -13 compared to 6-26 on the 32 match ups he lost.

The previous season irving was 32-24 matchup wise and his rookie season 27-12 eficiency wise.

NBA figured out Irving can be exploited on one side of the court and took advantage.

Theres also another factor.. In Kyrie's rookie year he was often bailed out by Anthony Parker.

In his 2nd year rookie Dion Waiter would often which assignments .

Irvings third year Waiters was mostly guarding the 2 or 3 and CJ didnt cover for him.

Irving last season the team was 6 points worse defensively whenever Irving was on the floor compared to 2 points the season before.

the team overall was better defensively last season but Irving showed no improvement still seeing the team give up 111 per 100 possessions .

Sigh.

 

[Nightperson]

Didn't take long for the Irving haters to come out again.

 

[Cavsengland]

Didn't take long for the Irving haters to come out again.

It's sad that our 22 year old talented point guard has haters.

 

[Tornicade]

I dont consider showing where a guy needs to improve or where they struggled as hating.