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Kyrie Irving

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Was Dwyane Wade irrelevant before LeBron?
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Wade had an NBA title under his belt before LeBron went to Miami.

Kyrie had three years in the lottery.
 
Jon said:
This is why context is important. My comment wasn't made at the end of the season, it was made early on in the season when some of our fans got carried away with what Kyrie was doing and started pondering if he was a top-5 PG.

At that point in the season, he was shooting very well, but not finishing inside well, he couldn't run the team, and certainly not defending well.

Kyrie brings a lot more to the table now than he did then, but he still has a long way to go to understand how to run a team and make the players around him better. Kyrie took a lot of flak in the Bynum days ... and it was justified!!! ... because he didn't know how to post-up a big man. He's still not very good at it, but at least he's improving now that there are some vets on the team to show him how.

Offensively as a PG, Kyrie is below average ... as a SG he's well above average. Maybe one day he'll prove otherwise, but James will likely have to give up the reigns again. Kyrie could demonstrate he could lead the team when James is out, but obviously the team is missing a lot more than just playmaking when James is out, and at this point the evidence is primarily negative.
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This is old news big homie. He's simply not being asked to run the team, so why keep on harping on him for it? That goes for everyone who keeps questioning his point guard skills. He's not the point guard and it isn't 1975. Might as well criticize him for not blocking enough shots.
 
Jack Brickman said:
I believe I saw a stat somewhere that Wade has been in the lottery every year he hasn't played with LeBron or Shaq. :chuckle:
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Burn
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Chris said:
I don't deal in absolutes. No need to write a book, bro. It's pretty simple: LeBron gets the vast majority of the credit for this team. Without him, what comes together? Kyrie, Wiggins, Waiters? Might win 30-35 games...maybe. Instead we have Kyrie, Love, and LeBron. You can dole out some credit to Chris Grant, David Griffin, and Dan Gilbert if it makes you feel better.

Not trying to shit on the guy, he's developing nicely. But I find the, "Haha, I told you so!!!" attitude from the people defending Irving from very fair and just criticism last year to be beyond hysterical. As if the team, and Irving's reputation, would be where it is now had LeBron not come here. There is just nothing to support that it would have based on last season. Irving put up decent stats last year, but without James transforming this team, he would just be another shoot first PG with nice scoring numbers and low assist totals on a horrible Eastern Conference team toiling in irrelevance this year. Maybe some people have forgotten how the season started, even with LeBron on this team, and Irving going entire games without an assist. I haven't forgotten.

LeBron is da real MVP.
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You're letting your perception become reality, and you're letting the media mind fuck you. That was one game, in Utah, where yes, he had zero assists, but scored what, like 30 points? We lost the game, the media shitted all over him. He and LeBron had a talk over it, and next thing you know this became a big deal. LeBron and Kyrie had a heated talk, da, da, da!

That was absolutely ridiculous. If anyone WATCHED the game, yes, Kyrie did shoot too much, and yes, he should have probably passed the ball more. But the everyone was playing like garbage. It was a horrible game from EVERYONE! Kyrie being the scorer, took it upon himself to try to do it alone.

ANY SCORER IN THE HISTORY OF THE NBA has been guilty of this! It's not like Kyrie is the first, nor will he be the last gifted scorer to have a game like this. LeBron has done stuff like this before. I don't know if he had a game literally, with no assist. But young scorer trying to do it all himself when no one else steps up is typical. LeBron played mentor to him, which is fine.

Let's point out facts here. One, Kyrie Irving was RELEVANT long before LeBron James ever came here.

The guy averaged 22.5 points per game his second season in the league. His numbers are almost identical to his sophomore year. Shooting a little better from the floor.

The guy was voted an starting NBA all-star his third year. The guy won MVP this summer playing for our country, over other huge stars in Anthony Davis, James Harden, Steph Curry.

No one is disputing LeBron is the best player on this team, and we're in the position to possibly win a title mainly because of him. That's not all him though.

Don't ignore the fact this team was still under .500, with that same guy on the team, until we finally made a few trades. Sure, he wasn't healthy and not himself, but it's quite evident to point out it's not all been LeBron James.

We have no idea what this team would look like if he never came. Point is, this is not the same team, we made an overhaul of the entire roster for a reason. It was a bad roster. It was not a Kyrie Irving problem. We found out once and for all, Dion really does suck, is a cancer, and LeBron didn't want to play with either, much like Kyrie. But unlike Kyrie, 'Bron has more pull with this organization.

But this notion that Kyrie was never going to be capable of being the lead guy on a winning team? If that's what you think, then you're wrong.

I wonder how stupid we'd look right now, if we traded him like some of the fans wanted to last year. We'd be totally fucked, looking, and hoping for another number 1 this year in the draft.
 
Jack Brickman said:
I believe I saw a stat somewhere that Wade has been in the lottery every year he hasn't played with LeBron or Shaq. :chuckle:
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Well, that stat would be incorrect. He's been in the playoffs without both of them. He was in the lottery just one season. The season they drafted Michael Beasley. Wade was mostly injured that season though.

Kyrie wasn't lucky enough to have Shaq though early in his career. So, let's not pretend Kyrie's had the same talent Wade had his first 3 years.

Got to look at the talent on the roster people, before you bash a guy. We had nothing, zero, Kyrie's first three years. Absolute shit around him.
 
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Well yeah, I mean, we were tanking...I thought everyone here understood that?
 
Rob said:
Well yeah, I mean, we were tanking...I thought everyone here understood that?
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The argument though is would we be where we are if LeBron didn't come back?

Than answer should be a resounding no. We would be looking at another lottery year.

No LeBron=No Kevin Love.
No LeBron=No Motivated JR Smith.
 
caf said:
The argument though is would we be where we are if LeBron didn't come back?

Than answer should be a resounding no. We would be looking at another lottery year.

No LeBron=No Kevin Love.
No LeBron=No Motivated JR Smith.
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Well no kidding. Seems like a dumb reason to diminish Kyrie's value, but whatever.
 
caf said:
The argument though is would we be where we are if LeBron didn't come back?

Than answer should be a resounding no. We would be looking at another lottery year.

No LeBron=No Kevin Love.
No LeBron=No Motivated JR Smith.
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They would have made the playoffs ahead of the Nets and Celtics and maybe Bucks (although the Raptors and the Wizards are no great shakes either). They'd be running a system similar to Atlanta. They'd have Hayward or Parsons. They likely also would have gotten Mozgov closer to the deadline and for less cost, and they'd likely have Shved or Norris Cole. They also would have still traded for Shumpert and Smith (they were interested in Shump for a long time and Smith was a throw in). Smith would be somewhat motivated as he likes Blatt, the Cavs would be in the playoffs, and this is a contract year for him. Mo Williams also had some interest in coming back but chose the Bobcats instead.

All that said, the Cavs would not be where they are without LeBron. They wouldn't get by him in the playoffs and they would not be a title contender. LeBron is maxed out stats. When he's playing all out, there is no other player like him.
 
I just watched a preview of the Cavs-Celtics series on NBA TV and they were asked what the biggest problems the Celtics could provide to the Cavaliers... Fratello said the Celtics athleticism and the other guy (Can't remember the name) said the Celtics guards might have an advantage over the Cavs guards :chuckle:
 
It's interesting reading the Celtics forums... They are primarily worried about Kyrie killing them, not LeBron.

Obviously they should be worried about both; but it's impressive how dangerous people feel Irving really is.
 
nikolajz1 said:
Saw this graph on reddit. Kyrie one of the worst defensive PG's in the NBA still this season, bleh. Hope he improves on it some in the post season. http://i.imgur.com/u0sfxSc.jpg
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I wouldn't read too much into this. It's an Opp FG% graph which is really a stretch to measure the entirety of a perimeter defender's performance.
 
gourimoko said:
It's interesting reading the Celtics forums... They are primarily worried about Kyrie killing them, not LeBron.

Obviously they should be worried about both; but it's impressive how dangerous people feel Irving really is.
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Kyrie's an unknown, never played in a playoff game.

I think everyone's assumption is that regardless of how LeBron is doing, Kyrie is going to shoot at will. And he doesn't miss. LeBron does.
 
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