Kyrie Irving

[Jon]

Irving does not defend opposing shooting guards 90% of the time. So, if your position is defined by the position you guard, then he's not playing SG in our lineups.

Yes, this is generally the case with every position other than PG because whether you care to admit it or not the PG of a team has a unique role on the offense side of the floor.

A role that LeBron once again fills for the Cavs.

James/Love/Irving were always going to have to share the ball, but Irving doesn't know how to make that happen. James does (even if Kevin had to focus more on spreading the floor to make it happen). That's why he had to quickly take the reigns away from Kyrie.

Basically this thread has become split along the lines of those who recognize the value a PG can bring by elevating his teammates, and those who think none of that matters as long as the ball goes in the bucket; and because of this there's a lot of talking past each other.

 

[Chris]

Attempting to portray an argument as biased by default rather than making an argument of your own is fallacious.

You know it's true. That's the best part.

I'm not going to waste hours on end arguing against a star player on my favorite team. What's the point in that? I don't think Irving is head and shoulders above one of his contemporaries, nor do I believe he is head and shoulders above Irving. I think if I were building a team, id be overjoyed to have either one. Irving is a better scorer but awful on defense. Wall is a better defender and a much better facilitator, thus makes his team around him better. Which is better?

That's your opinion. There is no right answer.

 

[Jon]

Attempting to portray an argument as biased by default rather than making an argument of your own is fallacious.

Kind of hard to hide from bias in the Kyrie Irving thread on a Cavaliers forum, but regardless, some points are clearly stronger than others.

 

[gourimoko]

Kind of hard to hide from bias in the Kyrie Irving thread on a Cavaliers forum, but regardless, some points are clearly stronger than others.

And you can honestly claim that your position is among the stronger points in this thread regardless of it being considered absurd by the vast majority?

 

[Chris]

I don't even know who is arguing what anymore lol.

 

[gourimoko]

It's pretty obvious who is arguing what imho.

 

[Chris]

Not really. It's like we have three different viewpoints from three different people. I'm not sure I necessarily agree with Jon completely or the other way around.

Waste of time.

 

[gourimoko]

Not really. It's like we have three different viewpoints from three different people. I'm not sure I necessarily agree with Jon completely or the other way around.

Waste of time.

Really? Because I see it completely differently...

I see two arguments neither of which I find all that compelling that assert kyrie is somehow less than advertised.

I see a very small minority of posters advocating this but without providing any real evidence to support their claims.

Now I'm seeing deflection and obfuscation to avoid just admitting they were wrong to begin with.

Next step is going to be Keys coming in and shaming folks. Lol.

 

[Kizzle]

I'm really nervous to see Kyrie's playoff alter ego.


I feel like he's not gonna be like Mo tho. I feel his talent is greater and his confidence is top notch

 

[tristan+kyrie=$]

Cannot wait for Playoff Kyrie...I feel his game gets elevated to a whole new level...and that gets me excited

 

[godfather]

There's already a Boston article dedicated to Kyrie, and how shitless scared they are of him.

 

[Chris]

Really? Because I see it completely differently...

I see two arguments neither of which I find all that compelling that assert kyrie is somehow less than advertised.

I see a very small minority of posters advocating this but without providing any real evidence to support their claims.

Now I'm seeing deflection and obfuscation to avoid just admitting they were wrong to begin with.

Next step is going to be Keys coming in and shaming folks. Lol.

Gonna assume that's not including me seeing as that was never my argument at all. I intentionally restated my stance many times because I felt like you and others were somehow thinking I was trying to cut Irving down or say he isn't that good. Looks like I was on the money.

 

[Cavatt]

Can we admit that his tunnel vision as a shooter and his inability to make entry passes \ generally get his team mates involved is his biggest weakness? He sucks in the defense so well, but he always tries to finish.

I don't think it is something he can't fix because I have seen him make those passes. Just not consistently.

He really has played like a SG most of his career with the Cavs. I don't know how anyone can argue he hasn't. He is so good at everything too, so criticizing him as a floor general seems unfair.

I mean Delly had 12 assists his last game. Kyrie has done that how many times in his career? Once or twice maybe? Unlike a pg he sees a difficult shot for him as better than a wide open shot by a team mate. That's why I have always said he is a bit like Kobe. I'm glad he has Lebron to look to now. I think it is helping his floor game.

 

[godfather]

Spot on Cavatt, I agree, he definitely has a lot of Kobe in his game. That also seems to be Kyrie's unofficial mentor, and inspiration as a player too. I'm 100% good with that too.

I don't care he's not a point guard, and I don't ever want to treat, or try to mold him into one too. It's a complete injustice to what he is and what he can do.

Players should not be criticized for being something they're clearly not. It's not a diminished view point if we all admit Kyrie is not a point guard. It's just not who he is, and that's okay.

Hey, the greatest player ever is identified firstly as a scorer. Being a scorer is a good thing, not a bad one at all.

I think in this league, as awesome and as team oriented pass first point guards are, they can only carry a team so far by themselves. That's just a fact, that's not an insult to them. Outside Magic Johnson, who was the greatest point guard ever, but also had a unique skill set and size we've never seen from the position, we've yet to see a pass first point guard, as the best player on the team, win a title.

Isiah Thomas was not a pass first point guard, he was a natural born scorer first.

That's why Kyrie to me is superior to Wall, and always will be. It's the same reason for example that Kobe Bryant has 5 titles, and will always be seen as better than Chris Paul for a good reason, who has not even been to the conference finals yet (just using two examples of players at different positions that have played at the highest level at their respected positions).

John Stockton, who I honestly think played the point guard, passing first position as well as anyone I've ever seen played it. He was amazing, he shared the best player duties with one of the greatest power forward's ever in Karl Malone. They did get to two finals, but no rings. None! You couldn't put together a more perfect and better tandem, but they couldn't get it done.

We've yet to see someone Kyrie's size, able to carry that scoring torch though, and that's where I am saying he might be shattering the mold. We've seen guys before his size, be dynamic scorers like Iverson for example, but as gifted as they were, and as good, their size in some capacity still held them back from doing that while leading a championship caliber team. It's hard to be so efficient as a top scorer at that size, and maybe Kyrie will be the new exception going forward.

 

[nikolajz1]

I think its fine for Kyrie to play with tunnel vision given that he has an even higher TS% than Lebron. It ok for him not to be a good passer. We don't need him to be John Wall.