LeBron James

[KI4MVP]

Here's a guy talking about it for 10 mins.
I don't know if you are old enough to remember the games, but anyone who is knows hand checking is a real thing.
View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1iMZ1lUz9rI

can I get those 10 minutes of my life back? There is so much wrong with what he says it's ridiculous. And the guy in the video isn't old enough to live through that era, I am. I've been watching basketball long enough to watch Wilt play. He doesn't understand the defensive 3 second rule at all. The rule change there made it easier to pack the lane, he describes it as making it harder to pack the lane.

Most of the videos playing behind him don't even show hand checking or shows a guy barely touching the player. Ignore what the guy is saying and look at the videos he's using to support his case. In 10 minutes of talking he has about 30 seconds of actual video that show some isolated instance. I'm certain you can find comparable video of players being physical with LeBron, including similar hand checking. The fact is defenses today are the best they've ever been as the game has evolved.

And I already showed videos of the teams who were actually good at defending Jordan and there is literally no hand checking in any of the videos of the top defensive teams playing their best defense on Jordan. It's never been more than a crutch for bad defense.

 

[KI4MVP]

Not to the extent back then.
Once a guy is driving, refs tell u to get your hands off of them. It also could be an extended had whereas now the most u can get away with is the forearm.

using your forearm has always been legal.

 

[Prime 1978]

I'm not one of the types to bring the board down with back and forth arguments.
I know what I saw, I grew up in that era.
If we interpreted what we saw differently, fine.
It wasn't a big deal but they changed the rule, and it was discussed quite a bit the year after the change.
I'm done with it.

Did I or did I not say you can use the forearm even now? Read what I said. The change is you can no longer extend your arm and redirect a guy. Which is what I said earlier.
One of the reasons I post very little is because guys try to change what you say to make themselves right. That forearm statement is a perfect example of that. I'm back to lurking.

 

[KI4MVP]

to followup. A 2 second search found these - the same sort of stuff that the few clips from that 10 minute video that actually showed any hand checking had.

 

[KI4MVP]

I'm not one of the types to bring the board down with back and forth arguments.
I know what I saw, I grew up in that era.
If we interpreted what we saw differently, fine.
It wasn't a big deal but they changed the rule, and it was discussed quite a bit the year after the change.
I'm done with it.

most of what went on was keeping your hand on the player off the ball so you know where he is without looking at him. Doing anything to actually impede his progress has been against the rules since 78. The way Jordan played facing the basket and attacking most of his career made hand checking while he had the ball worthless as a defensive tactic. The only time it really came up was in his post retirement when he developed that unstoppable turnaround fadeaway jumper. He was constantly hand checked while getting in position for that. That's when I remember him slapping the guys hand away, but it was worthless as a defensive tactic to stop that shot.

The only way to really slow Jordan down is the same thing teams do against LeBron, throw 2, 3, 4 or even all 5 defenders at him and make him pass the ball. The other changes in defensive rules have made that easier to do.

Those defensive changes is why spacing has become so important in today's game.

 

[Prime 1978]

Where is their arm extended. Which is the crux of what I'm saying.
Either you can't comprehend or you are debating just for the sake of it.
Please just drop it

 

[Prime 1978]

most of what went on was keeping your hand on the player off the ball so you know where he is without looking at him. Doing anything to actually impede his progress has been against the rules since 78. The way Jordan played facing the basket and attacking most of his career made hand checking while he had the ball worthless as a defensive tactic. The only time it really came up was in his post retirement when he developed that unstoppable turnaround fadeaway jumper. He was constantly hand checked while getting in position for that. That's when I remember him slapping the guys hand away, but it was worthless as a defensive tactic to stop that shot.

You win... Is that what u were looking for? I'm wrong you are right.
The minute u tried to change what I said I was through with this.
Hopefully that gets u to stop replying about it.
Sheesh

 

[Helium filament]

 

[Taiter]

Couldn't stand Jordan's arrogance but he's easily the best player I've ever seen. When he peaked in the early 90s, his turnarounds and midrange game was unstoppable, he was incredibly athletic, but the thing that separated him from anyone else I've ever seen in the NBA was his competitiveness and will to win... He was a maniac. Lebron is more likable but he can't touch Jordan in the 'will to win' area. Who can? The only person who is even in the ballpark as far as that half-psychotic mentality is Kobe Bryant, but Jordan was like Byrant on steroids. He was also an elite defender.

 

[mds]

Couldn't stand Jordan's arrogance but he's easily the best player I've ever seen. When he peaked in the early 90s, his turnarounds and midrange game was unstoppable, he was incredibly athletic, but the thing that separated him from anyone else I've ever seen in the NBA was his competitiveness and will to win... He was a maniac. Lebron is more likable but he can't touch Jordan in the 'will to win' area. Who can? The only person who is even in the ballpark as far as that half-psychotic mentality is Kobe Bryant, but Jordan was like Byrant on steroids. He was also an elite defender.

Garnett.

 

[Gus Zing]

I've given up on LeBron ever being better than Jordan. But thats ok.

LeBron still has the potential to be the 2nd best player ever. The one thing that has kept LeBron from reaching Jordan level's is his individual offense. LeBron can bail defenses out where Jordan was relentless. Part of the reason LeBron does this because his offensive skills isnt as diverse. He doesnt have the great moves on the court (half court).

If LeBron had committed to playing in the post for most of his career he would have had a shot. Because that would have meant he developed some deadly post skills. LeBron playing 30 feet from the hoop was the biggest detriment in his career imo. It lets you know how great he is because he's still one of the 10 best ever imo. Thats while never truly developing a go to move or elite back to the basket game.

As far as will to win or killer instinct. Its a lot easier to do so when you have an unstoppable move or repertoire of moves on the court. LeBron in previous years just didnt have a counter move when teams honed in to stop him.

But who cares. He's still the best in the league today. He'll finish top 5 of all time. If he somehow wins a championship with the Cavs this year it will go a long way with his legacy.

 

[Pioneer10]

Who said he was Nash?



I'm just amazed some of you think LeBron could even keep up with Jordan... And to act like LeBron has this great post-up game and would go to it to score on Jordan makes no sense.

Honestly, this conversation is silly, but some of you guys really don't remember how good Jordan was. The guy was unstoppable, and this was against far superior and grittier defenses than what we see in the NBA, let alone anything that James has ever demonstrated.

I'll leave it at that.

I'm not at all convinced that defense was better during Jordan's run. Offensive rating is slightly lower in the 2010's compare to the 90's on average. I do think defense became king in the very late 90's and early 00's as Riley's infamous defensive principles of pushing the boundaries spread the aggressive handcheck. The handcheck rules stymied that but the change on the zone rule gave team defenses tools they never had.

If you look back at the Finals particularly the Bulls first threepeat: it's amazing how often the lane is just wide open after a player beats the first defender. You could get away playing guys with no range like Rodman at the PF or teaming a guy like Malone with a no range C like Ostertag. That would just not fly against modern NBA defenses. Not saying the Bulls wouldn't still be a great team because they could go small with great length: i.e. lineup with Kukoc, Pippen, Harper, and Jordan together but they would have to make significant adjustments

 

[shoes22]

I've given up on LeBron ever being better than Jordan. But thats ok.

LeBron still has the potential to be the 2nd best player ever. The one thing that has kept LeBron from reaching Jordan level's is his individual offense. LeBron can bail defenses out where Jordan was relentless. Part of the reason LeBron does this because his offensive skills isnt as diverse. He doesnt have the great moves on the court (half court).

If LeBron had committed to playing in the post for most of his career he would have had a shot. Because that would have meant he developed some deadly post skills. LeBron playing 30 feet from the hoop was the biggest detriment in his career imo. It lets you know how great he is because he's still one of the 10 best ever imo. Thats while never truly developing a go to move or elite back to the basket game.

That's such a narrow criteria. There are more ways to effect a basketball game than scoring points. I'd argue LeBron has a more diverse set of tools in the tool chest than Jordan did.

 

[Gus Zing]

That's such a narrow criteria. There are more ways to effect a basketball game than scoring points. I'd argue LeBron has a more diverse set of tools in the tool chest than Jordan did.

Larry Bird and Magic Johnson had other tools as well. Still not considered better than Jordan.

Being more diverse. Doesnt mean better. Jordan scored the ball better than anyone. He was so dominant in that area of his game it just overwhelmed opponents. LeBron shows flashes of that but he cant score consistently like Jordan. LeBron does a number of things very well/great. LeBron's all time greatness at whatever facet of the game.......doesnt match up with what Jordan could do as far as scoring.

A better complete/ individual offensive game he beats the Celtics in 2010. A better set of offensive moves he beats the Mavericks in 2011.

The most dominant I ever saw LeBron (outside of 2009 playoffs where his jumper was deadly) was the 2012 playoffs. He was just a dominant back to the basket player when needed. He kind of moved away from the hoop the last couple of years.

LeBron does a number of things better than Jordan. However, in this league the most important skill set Jordan always had a huge advantage.


Thats no knock on LeBron. He's still an all time great. Stop letting the media force us to measure up LeBron to Jordan. Thats just a losing battle.

 

[K1rieIrving>AllOtherPG's]

statistically Lebron is already just as clutch as mj if not more, when brons career will be over the only argument you will have for MJ are the 6 rings, unless bron wins 4-5 more people will always use that