LeBron James

[I'mWithDan]

One thing about Jordan is he found a way to be insanely good in his 30's. He had +25 PERs at 32-34. That is nuts, especially for a SG.

If you think about how good even someone like Tim Duncan has been (as he has aged), he didn't even do that.

If you want an answer to this 1 on 1 thing, I think it depends on the age. In their younger years, I think LeBron beats up on him. His size and strength advantage is insane IMO in his mid 20's.

If we are talking 30-34 year old MJ and LeBron, I think LeBron might get beat pretty soundly. The way Jordan adjusted his game as he aged was pretty impressive. We'll see if LeBron can do the same.

 

[CalBuckeyeRob]

One thing about Jordan is he found a way to be insanely good in his 30's. He had +25 PERs at 32-34. That is nuts, especially for a SG.

If you think about how good even someone like Tim Duncan has been (as he has aged), he didn't even do that.

If you want an answer to this 1 on 1 thing, I think it depends on the age. In their younger years, I think LeBron beats up on him. His size and strength advantage is insane IMO in his mid 20's.

If we are talking 30-34 year old MJ and LeBron, I think LeBron might get beat pretty soundly. The way Jordan adjusted his game as he aged was pretty impressive. We'll see if LeBron can do the same.

The Jordan skill set was not as physically demanding as the LeBron skill set. LeBron gets hit hard every night which has to take a toll at some point.

 

[Rich]

I don't understand why people can't just sit back and enjoy these players. Lebrons career has been plagued by constantly measuring him up to Jordan and the question "where will he play next?"

Instead of appreciating players for who they are it is a constant dick measuring contest.

Who would win in a one on one contest? Certainly a 52 year old Jordan isn't beating anybody. How ludicrous of a question to even pose and how dumb are the people to think a mid century player is beating anybody, let alone lebron James.

Time machine game: size typically wins out, see jabar vs dr j. I see both guys taking games.

It's why I made the fly-fishing joke. It means as much as asking who can win a 1 on 1 game. It's a totally different sport and totally irrelevant as to which guy is the better all time player. You might as well ask which guy would have the best score in 18 holes of golf. It has as much to do with who the best player as who would win a 1 on 1 game.

Smush Parker beat Vince Carter 1 on 1. Who cares besides Smush and his family?

 

[The Oi]

Even Smush's family probably stopped giving a shit eventually.

I know the annual celebratory barbecues stopped a few years ago.

 

[cavsfever]

I've given up on LeBron ever being better than Jordan. But thats ok.

LeBron still has the potential to be the 2nd best player ever. The one thing that has kept LeBron from reaching Jordan level's is his individual offense. LeBron can bail defenses out where Jordan was relentless. Part of the reason LeBron does this because his offensive skills isnt as diverse. He doesnt have the great moves on the court (half court).

If LeBron had committed to playing in the post for most of his career he would have had a shot. Because that would have meant he developed some deadly post skills. LeBron playing 30 feet from the hoop was the biggest detriment in his career imo. It lets you know how great he is because he's still one of the 10 best ever imo. Thats while never truly developing a go to move or elite back to the basket game.

I agree. Playing on the perimeter also threatens to shorten Lebron's career because it is more physically demanding in certain ways -- you get pounded less but it is aerobically a lot more demanding for a big guy (which is why he is starting to need breathers during games) and must be very punishing on the knees and back of a 260+ pound guy. The great irony here is that Lebron probably developed as a perimeter player because he was seeking to imitate Jordan who everyone coming up saw as the gold standard for great players. When Lebron is a very different type of player than Jordan. He is more designed to be evolutionary Magic than the next Jordan. But for a while there the only way to discuss NBA stardom was as 'the next Jordan'.

 

[Gus Zing]

I agree. Playing on the perimeter also threatens to shorten Lebron's career because it is more physically demanding in certain ways -- you get pounded less but it is aerobically a lot more demanding for a big guy (which is why he is starting to need breathers during games) and must be very punishing on the knees and back of a 260+ pound guy. The great irony here is that Lebron probably developed as a perimeter player because he was seeking to imitate Jordan who everyone coming up saw as the gold standard for great players. When Lebron is a very different type of player than Jordan. He is more designed to be evolutionary Magic than the next Jordan. But for a while there the only way to discuss NBA stardom was as 'the next Jordan'.

I sometimes wonder what LeBron's career would have been like if Cleveland had a San Antonio like structure for him as a rookie. Great HC like Pop. Great mentor like Robinson. Great drafting of talent/acquiring of free agents.

In 2003 the Cavs really could have molded LeBron into being even greater than he is now imo.

 

[All4One1ForAll]

Maybe but Oscar Robertson played around the same era and I consider him the best PG in NBA history.

Oscar Robertson is not even close to the best PG in NBA history (Magic, Isiah, and Stockton were all better, and I would argue a few others as well) and is severely overrated. He played in the 60s (and early 70s), a time when the average NBA player was 6'5 and 65% of the league was white. He only has 1 championship, which was with probably the second greatest player of all time, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, in 1971 when there were only 17 teams in the entire league. Before he teamed up with Kareem, Oscar led his team to records of 33 wins, 43 wins, 42 wins, 55 wins (good), 48 wins, 45 wins, 39 wins, 39 wins, 41 wins, and 36 wins.

And his stats were extremely inflated. Besides playing a weak league, teams played at a much higher pace than they do today and players played a boatload of minutes, both of which led to crazy stats.

If we were to take Oscar's famous triple double average season (1962) and "modernize" it by putting it in the context of 94.8 possessions per game (the pace the Cavs play at) instead of 124.7 possessions per game (what his Royals played at) and then bringing down his minutes per game from 44.3 to a much more reasonable 38 minutes per game (which would still be second in the league today), his averages would be:

20.9 ppg / 7.4 apg / 8.1 rpg

Because of the ridiculous pace/minutes played and the state of the league back then, I think the older players (mainly before the 1980s) are overrated in general.

 

[cavsfever]

I sometimes wonder what LeBron's career would have been like if Cleveland had a San Antonio like structure for him as a rookie. Great HC like Pop. Great mentor like Robinson. Great drafting of talent/acquiring of free agents.

In 2003 the Cavs really could have molded LeBron into being even greater than he is now imo.

Lebron had bad mentoring and organization around him his first time through. Ricky Davis as the trusted veteran. An organization that never put the right talent around him. Coaches who were so dazzled by his talent that they figured they would just ride him 45 MPG with no need for any additional offensive game plan.

The one really good thing that he got from the team development-wise was that Mike Brown got him to internalize the importance of defense. Other than that he had to learn it all himself. A credit to him that he came out OK

 

[cavsfever]

Oscar Robertson is not even close to the best PG in NBA history (Magic, Isiah, and Stockton were all better, and I would argue a few others as well) and is severely overrated. He played in the 60s (and early 70s), a time when the average NBA player was 6'5 and 65% of the league was white. He only has 1 championship, which was with probably the second greatest player of all time. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, in 1971 when there were only 17 teams in the entire league. Before he teamed up with Kareem, Oscar led his team to records of 33 wins, 43 wins, 42 wins, 55 wins (good), 48 wins, 45 wins, 39 wins, 39 wins, 41 wins, and 36 wins.

And his stats were extremely inflated. Besides playing a weak league, teams played at a much higher pace than they do today and players played a boatload of minutes, both of which led to crazy stats.

If we were to take Oscar's famous triple double average season (1962) and "modernize" it by putting it in the context of 94.8 possessions per game (the pace the Cavs play at) instead of 124.7 possessions per game (what his Royals played at) and then bringing down his minutes per game from 44.3 to a much more reasonable 38 minutes per game (which would still be second in the league today), his averages would be:

20.9 ppg / 7.43 apg / 8.15 rpg

Because of the ridiculous pace/minutes played and the state of the league back then, I think the older players (mainly before the 1980s) are overrated in general.

I saw a full-game video of Oscar for the first time recently and I was kind of shocked. I mean, he was pretty good, he could have played in today's NBA and maybe been a borderline all-star just because of his size and diversity of talents. But what he really looked like was a decent modern NBA guard playing in a college league.

 

[All4One1ForAll]

I saw a full-game video of Oscar for the first time recently and I was kind of shocked. I mean, he was pretty good, he could have played in today's NBA, but he didn't even look all-star caliber really. What he looked like was an average/replacement level modern NBA guard playing in a college league.

Exactly. People underestimate the disparity in talent level between the modern day and the earlier days of the NBA and also forget about the difference in minutes played and pace. There's absolutely no way Oscar is the best PG of all time.

 

[I'mWithDan]

I sometimes wonder what LeBron's career would have been like if Cleveland had a San Antonio like structure for him as a rookie. Great HC like Pop. Great mentor like Robinson. Great drafting of talent/acquiring of free agents.

In 2003 the Cavs really could have molded LeBron into being even greater than he is now imo.

San Antonio was insanely fortunate though. If Robinson doesn't get hurt, they never get Duncan and the Spurs maybe never become the Spurs. In 1996, San Antonio won 59 games. It would have been the equivalent of LeBron getting hurt and then the Cavs adding Anthony Davis to a team that could already win the title.

One of Cleveland's biggest issues during the LeBron era was that he got too good too quick. That seems slightly absurd but even Kobe didn't break the 20PPG mark until his 4th year. LeBron did it in his rookie year. In year two (at 20), he averaged 27, 7 and 7, which is just stupid.

In LeBron's first 3 years they only had (2) #1 picks. In 2004 they had the #10 pick (Luke Jackson) and in 2006 the #25 (Shannon Brown). In 2007 the Cavs didn't have a single pick. He was so good, so soon that Cleveland didn't have a chance to build through the draft....that was also compounded by the previous GM being a complete waste of air.

On a team devoid of talent, we were still a middle of the pack team in those "building" years because LeBron was such a stud. That's kind of the worst place to be. Obviously there were management and coaching issues but LeBron being better than any 19 year old kid ever actually worked against us. Had he not been ready to perform right away, it would have given us a chance to pick much higher in both those years and potentially get at least one other long term building block. Once we got through those first 3 years, the building was pretty much over. At 22 LeBron made the finals and the days of patience or "long term" were gone.

 

[Dr. Gymbo]

^ Just to add about the lack of draft picks, Boozer leaving also really hurt as well. LeBron and Boozer together would have probably lifted this team higher than it did.

 

[Flight479]

Can we talk about LeBron's future production in the ATL series pretty please!

 

[MirORich]

Can we talk about LeBron's future production in the ATL series pretty please!

With their lack of true 7 footers and rim protectors, I would expect LeBron and a healthy Kyrie to be finishing at the rim at a high rate. LeBron showed that he could get to the rim at will against the Bulls and the Hawks interior defense is not as strong as the Bulls

 

[Flight479]

With their lack of true 7 footers and rim protectors, I would expect LeBron and a healthy Kyrie to be finishing at the rim at a high rate. LeBron showed that he could get to the rim at will against the Bulls and the Hawks interior defense is not as strong as the Bulls

I agree. Kyrie in particular could cause a lot of trouble for their bigs if close to healthy. They won't have to really worry about shot blocking in this series.