Poll Added: Phoenix interested in Gee

[JawJuttinAsasin]

Re: NBA Rumors: Phoenix Suns Interested in Alonzo Gee

How about from the last few years?

Of recent memory:

Lakers-Barnes and Mcroberts
Celts-Pietrus
Mavs-Delonte
Nugs-Wilson Chandler, Corey Brewer
Woyas-Dorell Wright
Rockets-Dragic
Pistons-Will Bynum
Clips- Foye and Gomes
Griz-Tony Allen
Blazers-Wes Mathews
Knicks-JR smith

All of these guys cost similarly and are in the same ballpark in terms of talent.

Point is, when the time comes that fleshing out the roster to contend is of necessity, I think there will be viable options.

 

[TitleTown]

Re: NBA Rumors: Phoenix Suns Interested in Alonzo Gee

How about from the last few years?

Of recent memory:

Lakers-Barnes and Mcroberts
Celts-Pietrus
Mavs-Delonte
Nugs-Wilson Chandler, Corey Brewer
Woyas-Dorell Wright
Rockets-Dragic
Pistons-Will Bynum
Clips- Foye and Gomes
Griz-Tony Allen
Blazers-Wes Mathews
Knicks-JR smith

All of these guys cost similarly and are in the same ballpark in terms of talent.

Point is, when the time comes that fleshing out the roster to contend is of necessity, I think there will be viable options.

I absolutely disagree with waiting, and that they'd READILY available to a team like the CAVS.

There are only a small number available each year (although, again, I don't see any at all being available this year that are in Gee's range of potential and athleticism), and the Cavs will likely not be at the top of their list.

If Gee's contract length is reasonable, we'd be idiots not to sign him unless someone offers something idiotic for him. You're just wrong -- you build up all parts of your roster together, not just the core.

 

[JawJuttinAsasin]

Re: NBA Rumors: Phoenix Suns Interested in Alonzo Gee

I absolutely disagree with waiting, and that they'd READILY available to a team like the CAVS.

They may not be. That is indeed a risk.

There are only a small number available each year (although, again, I don't see any at all being available this year that are in Gee's range of potential and athleticism), and the Cavs will likely not be at the top of their list.

I disagree with this and will attempt to show why. Here is who is available this year who are comparable to Gee in terms of ability and projected salary.

Pietrus
Delonte
Jason Terry
Brandon Rush r
Courtney Lee r
George Hill r
Rudy Fernandez r
Nick Young
Barnes
Delfino
Gerald Green
CJ Miles
Terrence Williams r
Foye
Mo

If Gee's contract length is reasonable, we'd be idiots not to sign him unless someone offers something idiotic for him.

Hard to argue with this. Though reasonable and idiotic aren't universally defined.

You're just wrong -- you build up all parts of your roster together, not just the core.

There are very few elite players. There are quite a few Alonze Gee caliber players. Why take the risk?

 

[TitleTown]

Re: NBA Rumors: Phoenix Suns Interested in Alonzo Gee

They may not be. That is indeed a risk.



I disagree with this and will attempt to show why. Here is who is available this year who are comparable to Gee in terms of ability and projected salary.

Pietrus
Delonte
Jason Terry
Brandon Rush r
Courtney Lee r
George Hill r
Rudy Fernandez r
Nick Young
Barnes
Delfino
Gerald Green
CJ Miles
Terrence Williams r
Foye
Mo


Hard to argue with this. Though reasonable and idiotic aren't universally defined.



There are very few elite players. There are quite a few Alonze Gee caliber players. Why take the risk?

Because, if his contract is structured right, there's no almost no risk given the amount of cap space we have. And Alonzo is far younger than most of the players on that list, and still has a chance to improve. Not to mention, he already knows Byron's system, and can help mentor the new rookies by exemplifying a good work ethic.

Sorry, but you don't really have an argument to make here. Gee is a part of this team, and we need to keep players like him around to HELP core players develop. We need role players right now. You don't wait for your core to be complete before adding them (yet somehow you keep ignoring this crucial point).

 

[JawJuttinAsasin]

Re: NBA Rumors: Phoenix Suns Interested in Alonzo Gee

Because, if his contract is structured right, there's no almost no risk given the amount of cap space we have.

Right, I mean, that is the point of this thread. Most think that 4m/yr for 3 or 4 years is properly structured. Some do not. Everyone agrees that if the contract is "structured right" then it would be advantageous to sign him.

And Alonzo is far younger than most of the players on that list, and still has a chance to improve.

This is factored in the price. If he was 28, then he would be offered like 1.5m.

Not to mention, he already knows Byron's system, and can help mentor the new rookies by exemplifying a good work ethic.

Meh on the system, but a positive personality is indeed worthwhile and likely factored into his cost.

Sorry, but you don't really have an argument to make here.

I have made it numerous times but I guess it either wasn't articulated well or just not compelling to you. Here, I will try again. When a team is devoid of elite talent, cap space is better served making runs at game changing players, rather than paying market value for decent players. Furthermore, similar impact can be attainable at bargain prices rather than paying for such players at their peak value.

Gee is a part of this team, and we need to keep players like him around to HELP core players develop. We need role players right now. You don't wait for your core to be complete before adding them (yet somehow you keep ignoring this crucial point).

Why do we need role players now? Why does a team need to lock down role players prior to acquiring its main pieces?

 

[TitleTown]

Re: NBA Rumors: Phoenix Suns Interested in Alonzo Gee

Right, I mean, that is the point of this thread. Most think that 4m/yr for 3 or 4 years is properly structured. Some do not. Everyone agrees that if the contract is "structured right" then it would be advantageous to sign him.



This is factored in the price. If he was 28, then he would be offered like 1.5m.



Meh on the system, but a positive personality is indeed worthwhile and likely factored into his cost.



I have made it numerous times but I guess it either wasn't articulated well or just not compelling to you. Here, I will try again. When a team is devoid of elite talent, cap space is better served making runs at game changing players, rather than paying market value for decent players. Furthermore, similar impact can be attainable at bargain prices rather than paying for such players at their peak value.



Why do we need role players now? Why does a team need to lock down role players prior to acquiring its main pieces?

So who are these players that will add "elite level talent" that the Cavs have a chance of landing in free agency?

How will paying Gee $4 million stop us from signing them, if in fact they are interested in the Cavs as opposed to other teams?

If you're not going to give specific, FUTURE examples, then your argument is meaningless.

I already answered your question "why does a team need to lock down role players prior to acquiring it's main pieces?"

(1) Because YOUNG athletic players like Gee still have the *potential* to be more than just a role player

(2) Because in order for core pieces to develop properly, they need more than D-Leaguers around them.

(3) We already have a couple core pieces

(4) Good role players are not always easy to find (see: LeBron era), and will probably go to big market teams before they go to the Cavs -- so we need to make sure to get the one's (like Gee) who are loyal to us

I'm sorry, but again, you're just wrong. If we can get Gee's contract to be structured right, then there's absolutely no reason not to sign him.

 

[Bob_The_Cat]

Re: NBA Rumors: Phoenix Suns Interested in Alonzo Gee

They may not be. That is indeed a risk.



I disagree with this and will attempt to show why. Here is who is available this year who are comparable to Gee in terms of ability and projected salary.

Pietrus - 30
Delonte - 28
Jason Terry - 34
Brandon Rush r - 26
Courtney Lee r - 26
George Hill r - 26
Rudy Fernandez r - 27
Nick Young - 26
Barnes - 32
Delfino - 29
Gerald Green - 26
CJ Miles - 25
Terrence Williams r - 24
Foye - 28
Mo - 29


Hard to argue with this. Though reasonable and idiotic aren't universally defined.



There are very few elite players. There are quite a few Alonze Gee caliber players. Why take the risk?

The big difference between Gee and the guys above is age. Gee will turn 25 at the end of May. Gee's at least a full two years younger than any guy on that list expect Green, Miles, and Williams. Aside from George Hill, all the ones that are relatively close in age have a birthday before the end of the year.

You can pretty much rule out any guy that's over 27 for the Cavs unless they are a major contributor. They have absolutely no reason to target a 27-year-old role player / bench player at this point, and most of those guys want to go to contenders unless they just get way overpaid.

If you take a look at the per 36 numbers of the guys close to Gee's age range, Gerald Green and Terrance Williams are really the only guy that put up better numbers this season, and neither may even be available. Rush had similar numbers but did shoot better from the field. You thought Gee's FG% was bad? Miles shot 38% on the year...lol

In order for the Cavs to build a good, deep team that can contend, they have to hang onto their young players and develop them. I'm not saying I want Gee as a starter, but $4 mill over 3-4 years for a guy like Gee isn't much at all.

I think the biggest problem is a lot of people here simply don't understand the types of guys that make $4 mill a year in the NBA. Everyone's expectations seem skewed into thinking that we're going to sign a serious impact player at $4 mill a year.

For a better perspective on this, I compiled the following list of guys who are currently in the $3.5-4.5 mill range and who aren't still on their rookie contract, aren't due a big raise when they become FA or RFA at the end of this year, and aren't older vets that would simply have no interest in coming to Cleveland when they become FA's at the end of the year (i.e. Chauncy Billups, Vince Carter, etc.) Here it is:

Johan Petro
Jordan Farmar
Brandon Bass
Daniel Gibson
Will Bynum
Mike Dunleavy
Carlos Delfino
Shawn Livingston
Matt Carroll
Udonis Haslem
Joel Anthony
Chris Duhon
Derek Fisher
Matt Bonner
JJ Barea
Luke Ridnour
Dorell Wright
Steve Blake
Ramon Session
Jared Dudley
Hakim Warrick

Wow. Stellar group of players there guys. At this point, Bass is about the only guy that I would take on the Cavs over Gee. Hopefully this helps to demonstrate the value of locking up a guy like Gee at $4 mill for 3-4 years while he is still developing as a player. Ideally he's the 7th or 8th player in the rotation, but I think he can possibly be more than that. Considering the time and money the Cavs have already spent developing Gee, I'd rather just keep him on the team and continue to work with him than bring someone new into the system. At some point, if you hope to become a good team and organization, you have to re-sign your own guys that have experience with the team and in the system rather than bringing in a late pick rookie.

 

[JawJuttinAsasin]

Re: NBA Rumors: Phoenix Suns Interested in Alonzo Gee

The big difference between Gee and the guys above is age. Gee will turn 25 at the end of May. Gee's at least a full two years younger than any guy on that list expect Green, Miles, and Williams. Aside from George Hill, all the ones that are relatively close in age have a birthday before the end of the year.

You can pretty much rule out any guy that's over 27 for the Cavs unless they are a major contributor. They have absolutely no reason to target a 27-year-old role player / bench player at this point, and most of those guys want to go to contenders unless they just get way overpaid.

I guess I am just very poor at explaining my reasoning, but I will give it one last go. I do not advocate spending ~4m on any of those players and do not see the need to acquire them right now. My point in listing them was that in 3-5 years, when hopefully the Cavs core is approaching contention, there will be a ton of options for filling out the roster with minor contributors. In the meantime, I do not think it is proper to expend resources on that type of player because those resources should be directed at a big-time player.

Put another way, does using 4m in cap space on Gee make it more or less likely the Cavs can make a big time pickup? I see it as slightly less. But the other option would be to lose Gee, and I do not think that is such a bad thing as players of his caliber are available and affordable every year.

Now, you mention age and potential and indeed if you feel that Gee has decent shot to make large improvements and outplay his contract, then of course he should be resigned as it would provide great value.

Slightly related, what was the forum consensus on the contract to Pavlovic years ago?

 

[Randolphkeys]

Re: NBA Rumors: Phoenix Suns Interested in Alonzo Gee

I guess I am just very poor at explaining my reasoning, but I will give it one last go. I do not advocate spending ~4m on any of those players and do not see the need to acquire them right now. My point in listing them was that in 3-5 years, when hopefully the Cavs core is approaching contention, there will be a ton of options for filling out the roster with minor contributors. In the meantime, I do not think it is proper to expend resources on that type of player because those resources should be directed at a big-time player.

I think this is where your dream of building the roster differs from the Cavs front office. They don't plan on going after the big names with big salaries in free agency. The Cavs might nab someone on a VERY short contract if the player can't find the money elsewhere, but they never planned on going after the A list free agents in the next two+ years. Cleveland isn't an attractive destination for free agents yet. They want to establish a good team atmosphere with young players who actually WANT to be Cavaliers long-term. Mo Williams, Jamario Moon, Baron Davis... they didn't want to be here so they are gone. Boobie and Varejao wanted to be Cavaliers and they are still here, nurturing the next generation we draft. If Gee is on board with being a team first player, he is worth a supporting role type of salary.

Put another way, does using 4m in cap space on Gee make it more or less likely the Cavs can make a big time pickup? I see it as slightly less. But the other option would be to lose Gee, and I do not think that is such a bad thing as players of his caliber are available and affordable every year.

Now, you mention age and potential and indeed if you feel that Gee has decent shot to make large improvements and outplay his contract, then of course he should be resigned as it would provide great value.

Slightly related, what was the forum consensus on the contract to Pavlovic years ago?

You do run a risk of being viewed as a "minor league" NBA team, one where you build up your stats in losing games, then get paid to play for a contender. The Bobby Phills/Chris Mills era as well as the Andre Miller/Derek Anderson era of Cavs basketball made many fans feel like we were training rookies for other teams. As I sit here in the Bay Area, I am surrounded by hoops fans who were bitter that the "We Believe" supporting cast all left on minor deals with franchises who are considered "playoff destinations."

It's about creating a culture where teammates want to remain with the franchise and build a winner together. You can't say signing Gee for two years would be the same as signing Gerald Green for two years if viewed through this lens.


P.S. Most of us thought Pavs was a flash in the pan who got paid for a few months of decent hoops, but he signed a short contract that had a team option, thus it was beneficial to the team no matter what.

 

[MD13]

Re: NBA Rumors: Phoenix Suns Interested in Alonzo Gee

If we do sign Gee to a contract, would we be able to heavily front-load the deal? I know OKC did this with Collison and since Grant apparently doesn't plan to use our cap space right now, it could help us long-term.

 

[Kypus]

Re: NBA Rumors: Phoenix Suns Interested in Alonzo Gee

P.S. Most of us thought Pavs was a flash in the pan who got paid for a few months of decent hoops, but he signed a short contract that had a team option, thus it was beneficial to the team no matter what.

Many of us seem to agree on the team option for a 3rd (or 4th, some) year. Seems to keep 'em hungry. I think I smell a poll.

 

[EdgarJones]

Re: NBA Rumors: Phoenix Suns Interested in Alonzo Gee

Regardless of any other additions this offseason, if you can re-sign Gee in the neighborhood of 4MM per year,
you do it.

 

[PosterTime]

Front load the shit out of it so we have cap space when our team is ready to dominate. Sounds good to me.

 

[The Process God]

Front load the shit out of it so we have cap space when our team is ready to dominate. Sounds good to me.

How offset can a contract be exactly?

 

[Kouki]

Re: NBA Rumors: Phoenix Suns Interested in Alonzo Gee

I wanted 4 years, 15 million, front-loaded with team option on 4th.

=(