Shootouts and explosions in Paris

[The Human Q-Tip]

I dont get this critique of hypocrisy. You can give charity that helps american poor but on the other hand charities that help Syrians many of their main goals is relocate sue to security. People need help in different ways and charitable giving is just one way and will not help certain populations no matter how much you give of your net worth

In addition, we actually help ourselves with immigration. Even when Castro dumped a bunch of criminals we were better off for it.

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-11-18/admitting-syrian-refugees-is-good-economics

It not only the right thing to do morally but for the economy

I owe someone else something on the economics, but in short, 99% of the time, it's bogus.

Sure, add a bunch of people, GDP increases. But how about GDP per capita? How does the fact that we give refugees a bunch of money (and we do), and they eventually can support themselves, benefit the rest of us?

Looking at the aggregate misses the point.

 

[Pioneer10]

An article from the most well funded, most biased news organization supporting the left is a guarantee of a free lunch?


I'm neither left nor right to be clear. So don't start. I believe in global warming, pro-choice, pro gun, and for gay marriage. All of them shouldn't even be a political issue. Do you know how many hundreds of millions of dollars it takes to become President? There is no one funding a run out of their own pocket. These people were all bought and paid for, left and right, before they ever stepped foot in the whitehouse. They owe favors for those "donations." If you think otherwise you are nuts.

Noah Smith is actually one of the most fair arbiters ive seen. He definitely leans left but hes mostly been pushed this way due to his dialogue with Adam Ozimek on this who is a pretty hard core libertrarian

 

[Damien O'Connel]

All I'm gathering from this is that it's an incredibly complicated topic with no clear answer...

 

[Pioneer10]

Do you have kids? A wife? If something happened to them like what happened in Paris? Are you ok with that because you didn't want to offend someone from Syria?

Below is Mathias and Marie. They were dear friends to quite a few of my friends. They were out enjoying a rock concert in Paris on Friday. Then at least one Syrian refugee and some other members of ISIS showed up.

They're in this pile somewhere now. WARNING GRAPHIC IMAGE

If you can look at that and say yeah, I'm willing to possibly have that happen to everyone I know and everyone I don't know in this country. My family, friends, my wife, my kids, all may encounter something like this, but it's worth the risk because this is really important. Then fair enough.

Sometimes I think the bleeding hearts just see this all as statistics and not real life.

Yet we have Sandy Hook, Newton, etc. And yet your pro gun? Why not such a response to thise events that actually occurred on the US?

Considering that nearly all the participants in the Paris attacks were French nationals focusing on one possibe Syrian refugee as the main focus doesnt make much for such a broad conclusion.

 

[The Oi]

Our homeless are spoiled and entitled.

 

[Damien O'Connel]

Yet we have Sandy Hook, Newton, etc. And yet your pro gun? Why not such a response to thise events that actually occurred on the US?

Considering that nearly all the participants in the Paris attacks were French nationals focusing on one possibe Syrian refugee as the main focus doesnt make much for such a broad conclusion.

But by allowing the refugees in, in theory you increase the odds of something like this happening.

In your analogy, Sandy Hook will happen no matter what. "Syrian refugee shooting at mall" can be prevented.

I honestly don't know what decision I would make here if I were faced with it. It would be hard to live with myself knowing that a 2 year old died because of something I did, whether that occurs from her being a refugee without a home or from a refugee committing an act of terror domestically.

Again, this situation is so fucked up that I don't think there is a clear answer.

 

[Pioneer10]

I owe someone else something on the economics, but in short, 99% of the time, it's bogus.

Sure, add a bunch of people, GDP increases. But how about GDP per capita? How does the fact that we give refugees a bunch of money (and we do), and they eventually can support themselves, benefit the rest of us?

Looking at the aggregate misses the point.

There are several studies that show increases per capita gdp. Its not hard to see the reason why: different skillset, different interests, moving to declining areas where they can help keep the capital stock from crumbling, age effects: your getting people in prime working age, etc.

 

[Pioneer10]

But by allowing the refugees in, in theory you increase the odds of something like this happening.

In your analogy, Sandy Hook will happen no matter what. "Syrian refugee shooting at mall" can be prevented.

I honestly don't know what decision I would make here if I were faced with it. It would be hard to live with myself knowing that a 2 year old died because of something I did, whether that occurs from her being a refugee without a home or from a refugee committing an act of terror domestically.

Again, this situation is so fucked up that I don't think there is a clear answer.

Think of it this way. The Italians bought the damn mafia over and yet I dont think anyone would say we should have kept them out. Now of course back then there was significant ant Italian sentiment that we tend to forget nowadays

 

[Notorious]

Yet we have Sandy Hook, Newton, etc. And yet your pro gun? Why not such a response to thise events that actually occurred on the US?

Considering that nearly all the participants in the Paris attacks were French nationals focusing on one possibe Syrian refugee as the main focus doesnt make much for such a broad conclusion.

So I am gong to do you a huge disservice and assume you are young. I'm assuming you are in your 20's. When I was young I also felt the same way. I was against guns big time. I then got to do a massive amount of traveling for my work. Domestic and International. My travel wasn't to tourist destinations. When you get to places like South Central L.A., Baltimore, South Side of D.C., Newark New Jersey, Brooklyn and the Bronx you see things you don't think are real. There are whole blocks in these areas where cops won't even come. Even if you call them. I stayed in one neighborhood in D.C. and one in Brooklyn where there was a burned cop car sitting on the street and in a courtyard of an apartment complex.

When you grow up in the suburbs it's easy to think the problem comes from something and not someone. There are terrible people in the world. Horrible, disgusting, disturbed people. Thankfully they are a fraction of a fraction of the population. When you think there are 350 million guns in this country, with an estimated ownership group of 100 million people, you should realize how many good people there are out there.

Back in the 70's and 80's bombings were a frequent occurrence in this country. If you take the guns away do you think people couldn't just make a bomb. Do you think someone couldn't just plow a bunch of kids waiting to be picked up from school with a car?

I look at the Paris events and I think nothing like that would ever happen here to that extent. Someone would have returned fire and quickly. It's sad they aren't allowed to carry or own guns over there.

It reminds me of the Oregon shooting. You have this Army vet Dad who runs at the shooter, gets shot 7 times trying to stop him, and this is the day of his sons 6th birthday. In my travels that's the majority of my dealings with people. Humans are good natured and will sacrifice themselves for others. The sad thing is we let this guy go fight a war to protect us and others. Then he gets home and we say your job is done. This guy still runs at a gunman unarmed.

Which is the feel good story? Army Vets shot 7 times as gunman kills 10 at Oregon school. Or Army Vet shoots and kills gunman before he can go on a mass killing spree.

The only problem with guns is that people aren't allowed to step up and be the good guy. They have to leave the gun in their car and hide and wait to figure out if some nut is gonna kill them or not. If the teachers at Sandy Hook, which is Newton BTW, were armed you'd probably have 0-2 people dead.

So I did have a reaction, that reaction was why do they restrict people from defending these kids.

You see, you want to stop a majority of people from owning guns to protect a very small amount of people. Many people here want to stop a majority of refugees from coming into the country to protect what will most likely be a small amount of people. It's 2 sides of the same coin.

I happen to think though that if you get rid of guns people will find other ways to mass kill. Unfortunately no one will be able to stop them. There are plenty of cases of concealed carriers stoping these mass killings before they start.

However if you don't allow refugees in at the moment you potentially send them to their deaths. However a small amount of people are probably saved. What's really infuriating is some guy is offering to buy and unused island in the Mediterranean for them. Employ them to build homes and infrastructure. He says he can support millions of them. Why is this not being explored?

 

[Damien O'Connel]

Think of it this way. The Italians bought the damn mafia over and yet I dont think anyone would say we should have kept them out. Now of course back then there was significant ant Italian sentiment that we tend to forget nowadays

The Mafia didn't have an expressed goal to kill every living American....this is a different animal.

 

[JSS2306]

All I'm gathering from this is that it's an incredibly complicated topic with no clear answer...

There's a clear answer.

Stop using religion as an answer to social/economic problems. Kids in "insert country here" aren't starving because they aren't religious enough. We should stop using culture as an excuse for ignorance.

Religion and politics isn't solving the worlds greatest issues but science eventually will if we survive long enough.

I believe we survive long enough since we have no data to predict otherwise. We're (including myself) very young in humanity in the scheme of things but peace and happiness seems to trump hostility.

That's a good trait for a living creature on a planet to have and that's why I'm optimistic.

 

[Pioneer10]

So I am gong to do you a huge disservice and assume you are young. I'm assuming you are in your 20's. When I was young I also felt the same way. I was against guns big time. I then got to do a massive amount of traveling for my work. Domestic and International. My travel wasn't to tourist destinations. When you get to places like South Central L.A., Baltimore, South Side of D.C., Newark New Jersey, Brooklyn and the Bronx you see things you don't think are real. There are whole blocks in these areas where cops won't even come. Even if you call them. I stayed in one neighborhood in D.C. and one in Brooklyn where there was a burned cop car sitting on the street and in a courtyard of an apartment complex.

When you grow up in the suburbs it's easy to think the problem comes from something and not someone. There are terrible people in the world. Horrible, disgusting, disturbed people. Thankfully they are a fraction of a fraction of the population. When you think there are 350 million guns in this country, with an estimated ownership group of 100 million people, you should realize how many good people there are out there.

Back in the 70's and 80's bombings were a frequent occurrence in this country. If you take the guns away do you think people couldn't just make a bomb. Do you think someone couldn't just plow a bunch of kids waiting to be picked up from school with a car?

I look at the Paris events and I think nothing like that would ever happen here to that extent. Someone would have returned fire and quickly. It's sad they aren't allowed to carry or own guns over there.

It reminds me of the Oregon shooting. You have this Army vet Dad who runs at the shooter, gets shot 7 times trying to stop him, and this is the day of his sons 6th birthday. In my travels that's the majority of my dealings with people. Humans are good natured and will sacrifice themselves for others. The sad thing is we let this guy go fight a war to protect us and others. Then he get's home and we say you're job is done. This guy still runs at a gunman unarmed.

Which is the feel good story? Army Vets shot 7 times as gunman kills 10 at Oregon school. Or Army Vet shoots and kills gunman before he can go on a mass killing spree.

The only problem with guns is that people aren't allowed to step up and be the good guy. They have to leave the gun in their car and figure out if some nut is gonna kill them or not. If the teachers at Sandy Hook, which is Newton BTW, were armed you'd probably have 0-2 people dead.

So I did have a reaction, that reaction was why do they restrict people from defending these people.

You see you want to stop a majority of people from owning guns to protect a very small amount of people. Many people here want to stop a majority of refugees from coming into the country to protect what will most likely be a small amount of people. It's 2 sides of the same coin.

I happen to think though that if you get rid of guns people will find other ways to mass kill. Unfortunately no one will be able to stop them. There are plenty of cases of concealed carriers stoping these mass killings before they start.

However if you don't allow refugees in at the moment you potentially send them to their deaths. However a small amount of people are probably saved. What's really infuriating is some guy is offering to buy and unused island in the Mediterranean for them. Employ them to build homes and infrastructure. He says he can support millions of them. Why is this not being explored?

You are actually doing me a huge disservice because I am damn immigrant to this country and who put up with plenty of abuse including being called a camel jockey during the first Iraq War even though im not Muslim nor Middle Eastern. Doesnt really bother me since ive done better then 99 percent of my high school but Ive seen far more poverty and misery then most here so no I dont find your reasoning about refuges very compelling

 

[Notorious]

You are actually doing me a huge disservice because I am damn immigrant to this country and who put up with plenty of abuse including being called a camel jockey during the first Iraq War even though im not Muslim nor Middle Eastern. Doesnt really bother me since ive done better then 99 percent of my high school but Ive seen far more poverty and misery then most here so no I dont find your reasoning about refuges very compelling

This entire post was about guns not my reasoning on refugees.

 

[Notorious]

There's a clear answer.

Stop using religion as an answer to social/economic problems. Kids in "insert country here" aren't starving because they aren't religious enough. We should stop using culture as an excuse for ignorance.

Religion and politics isn't solving the worlds greatest issues but science eventually will if we survive long enough.

I believe we survive long enough since we have no data to predict otherwise. We're (including myself) very young in humanity in the scheme of things but peace and happiness seems to trump hostility.

That's a good trait for a living creature on a planet to have and that's why I'm optimistic.

Science is almost becoming scarier then religion. Science is actually all theoretical. Nothing is known. What you think is fact today will be laughed at in 25 years. Just at it has been forever. Science is ever evolving. The problem today is people act like every scientific thing they learn is fact and insult others who don't know or don't believe this. That's exactly the opposite of science. Not much in science has survived 25-50 years in tact and that won't change for 1,000's of years if ever. Almost like people put all of this blind faith in science just like they do religions. Maybe it's a human nature thing.

 

[Notorious]

Kind of amazing to watch those saying what a terrible thing it would be to not let the refugees in come out against the poor. KI is acting like they don't want anything. All because they were pissed he tried to give them his misprints and overruns. Others are attacking their mental health. It's funny because one side seems to be like F those in need here and the other is like F those in need elsewhere. Both are riding high on the horse and both are shitting on a group of people to do so. Both sides think they are more moral than the other...