Slingin' Sammy "Super Soaker" Merrill

[mAo_mAo]

30% since the break. It's down to 23% in all games outside of the Knicks game where he went off. Him being a weapon that demanded a defender chasing hard at all times was a huge boost for us. He really needs to be a threat that the Cavs play 15 minutes a night. Have to figure JB is going to take him out of the playoff rotation if he doesn't start hitting again to finish out the season.

He is still a threat regardless if he is hitting his shots or not. He is the reverse Okoro. Okoro may hit his threes but teams will still pack the paint and force him to hit threes. Merill on the other hand truly pulls defenders away from the paint as he is a volume sniper who may drop 8 once he sees 1 go in.

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

Sam is 5-for-30 on 3's in his last four games. His minutes in those games were 30, 18, 19, and 22. Last night he went 1-for-7 after a day off with no travel and having played 19 minutes two days earlier. Excuse me, but dead legs? Some people are going to blame Bickerstaff for everything.

By the way, the rest of the Cavaliers were 13-for-25 on 3's against the Nets. I guess tired legs didn't affect their shots too much.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

He is still a threat regardless if he is hitting his shots or not. He is the reverse Okoro. Okoro may hit his threes but teams will still pack the paint and force him to hit threes. Merill on the other hand truly pulls defenders away from the paint as he is a volume sniper who may drop 8 once he sees 1 go in.

Don't look now, but Okoro is just 0.2% behind Merrill for having the best 3pt% on the team.

Merrill obviously is the better shooter because of volume, but if teams choose to leave Okoro open and dare him to hit shots, that's fine by me.

 

[guitarguy]

Yeah not really making a case for playing time. Maybe he really only is good for 5 minutes a game.

 

[mAo_mAo]

Don't look now, but Okoro is just 0.2% behind Merrill for having the best 3pt% on the team.

Merrill obviously is the better shooter because of volume, but if teams choose to leave Okoro open and dare him to hit shots, that's fine by me.

I am mot knocking on Okoro. I am just mentioning the manner by which teams play both guys. I know Okoro hits his threes now but watching the games, teams are still defending him the same way as previous years.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I am mot knocking on Okoro. I am just mentioning the manner by which teams play both guys. I know Okoro hits his threes now but watching the games, teams are still defending him the same way as previous years.

I agree. But if they're just laying off him, and he has both a greater ability and a greater willingness to shoot, laying off him is a good thing for the Cavs.

 

[2 For The Brew]

Merrill has few physical attributes to help him on defense so he compensates to a limited extent with technique and busting his ass. That takes energy. He's also going to take a physical beating in the playoffs.

I don't know if he can be a useful rotation player in the playoffs or not. Based on what we've seen I think it's folly to play him more than about 15 mpg. He's a specialist sharpshooter but isn't durable like Steph for example. We need him to be high energy when he does play and too many minutes is asking too much.

Okoro has a similar issue. He burns up a ton of energy on the defensive end. He can knock down threes at a decent rate but if you ask him to be a volume shooter or shoot late in games too often you've got a tired guy who's still learning consistency.

Playoff series are often a war of attrition. Must be careful not to burn out players by asking too much.

This is why I never got pissed at LeBron for coasting in the regular season by not playing defense. Dude played four rounds of playoffs eight years running. As long as you get to the Finals IDGAF about regular season.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

This is why I never got pissed at LeBron for coasting in the regular season by not playing defense....As long as you get to the Finals (and generally lose) IDGAF about regular season.

Added some additional context there, so I have to split from you bro.

The vast majority of the games we get to see as fans aren't Finals games, and they're not even playoff games. So if those games aren't generally enjoyable to watch...what's the point? We had a blast watching last year's summer league games even though they were meaningless in terms of an NBA title just because it was good basketball. Isn't having an enjoyable game-watching experience the whole point of being a fan?

I'm personally not willing to subordinate having an enjoyable regular season just for the sake of reaching the Finals, especially when after Durant and the dropoff in play of our supporting roster, we didn't have much of a chance in those Finals anyway.

I don't expect a team to ignore the long-term effect of minutes and treat every regular season game as Game 7. In fact, I wish LBJ would have played fewer regular season minutes and just put forth more effort in the fewer minutes he did play. But he didn't want to do that because he was offensive stat-chasing, so instead we got tons of ball-pounding and crappy team effort just so LBJ could keep his offensive stats up.

That's why I personally was glad to see the door hit his ass as he left. Just not willing to give up watching good basketball to help him pad stats and lose in the Finals. I'd rather rewatch the 2023 Summer League Champion Cavs again than the 2016-17 and 17-18 regular seasons Cavs.

 

[2 For The Brew]

Added some additional context there, so I have to split from you bro.

The vast majority of the games we get to see as fans aren't Finals games, and they're not even playoff games. So if those games aren't generally enjoyable to watch...what's the point? We had a blast watching last year's summer league games even though they were meaningless in terms of an NBA title just because it was good basketball. Isn't having an enjoyable game-watching experience the whole point of being a fan?

I'm personally not willing to subordinate having an enjoyable regular season just for the sake of reaching the Finals, especially when after Durant and the dropoff in play of our supporting roster, we didn't have much of a chance in those Finals anyway.

I don't expect a team to ignore the long-term effect of minutes and treat every regular season game as Game 7. In fact, I wish LBJ would have played fewer regular season minutes and just put forth more effort in the fewer minutes he did play. But he didn't want to do that because he was offensive stat-chasing, so instead we got tons of ball-pounding and crappy team effort just so LBJ could keep his offensive stats up.

That's why I personally was glad to see the door hit his ass as he left. Just not willing to give up watching good basketball to help him pad stats and lose in the Finals. I'd rather rewatch the 2023 Summer League Champion Cavs again than the 2016-17 and 17-18 regular seasons Cavs.

100% but that doesn’t address my comment which is that I’m not mad at LeBron for any of that. He’s out to win rings, not regular season games. He won 66 and 61 games in back to back seasons and didn’t make the Finals either time. Were any of us happy at the time with the regular season in retrospect?

It’s also not his fault (or any other player’s) that the incentives for any individual player are different than for team wins or aesthetically pleasing basketball. Sacrificing your stats for team success means less glory and less money. Although in LeBron’s case he could afford (in every way) to sacrifice a bit in favor of teammates but it’s his league and the NBA / Team Managements / Teammates go along with it (except for Kyrie).

I blame the NBA (although as long as ratings are good they could give a shit). They’ve further cheapened the regular season with the bullshit play in tournament. Play 82 games, finish ten games better than the #10 seed but then lose two games and you’re out in favor of a team that won 31 games or something.

In soccer leagues around the world the league champions are those with the best record in what we call the “regular season”. It’s how it worked in baseball until the World Series was agreed between two separate leagues but you still had to finish first in the entire league until 1969. Best over the long season is best in my book but we decided long ago the champion is the winner of a tournament instead.

At least in hockey they have the “President’s Trophy” for the best regular season record but nobody cares. It’s Lord Stanley’s Cup or bust.

And for the NBA we have the “Only Rings Matter” crowd that LeBron has heard forever, so it’s understandable that’s his focus (along with counting stats which is the other obsession for NBA glory). In fact counting stats matter more to some than rings which is one reason Bill Russell is often ranked well down from the best despite 11 rings.

 

[Dr No]

30% since the break. It's down to 23% in all games outside of the Knicks game where he went off. Him being a weapon that demanded a defender chasing hard at all times was a huge boost for us. He really needs to be a threat that the Cavs play 15 minutes a night. Have to figure JB is going to take him out of the playoff rotation if he doesn't start hitting again to finish out the season.

Sam was never going to be a heavy part of the playoff rotation. When games get more physical and each possession is played harder, Sam is going to struggle to stay on the court. He will be hunted mercilessly on the defensive end. His limited role was, and still likely is, to come in when the offense is stagnant and/or the defense is just packing it in and needs loosened up. The hope would be that on those nights he is called on, the shot is falling.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

100% but that doesn’t address my comment which is that I’m not mad at LeBron for any of that. He’s out to win rings, not regular season games. He won 66 and 61 games in back to back seasons and didn’t make the Finals either time. Were any of us happy at the time with the regular season in retrospect?

But we don't watch seasons in retrospect. We watch them as they are happening, without knowledge of how they will end, and without some certain link between taking it easy (or hard) during the regular season and winning a championship.

I can't think of a single LBJ-era Cavs season where the intensity of the regular season performances were even arguably a determining factor in the ultimate result. We didn't lose to the Magic and Celtics during LBJ's first stint because we played too hard during the regular season, and we didn't lose to Golden State in 16-17 and 17-18 because we took it easy.

So to prospectively accept low effort with the excuse that it will pay dividends later seems sketchy to me. And while you might not have been mad at LBJ for I consistent effort in 16-17 and 17-18 regular seasons, I was because many of those games were just painful to watch.

It’s also not his fault (or any other player’s) that the incentives for any individual player are different than for team wins or aesthetically pleasing basketball. Sacrificing your stats for team success means less glory and less money. Although in LeBron’s case he could afford (in every way) to sacrifice a bit in favor of teammates but it’s his league and the NBA / Team Managements / Teammates go along with it (except for Kyrie).

There are a lot of star/superstar players who play under those exact same incentives who choose differently than did LBJ. So I think it is perfectly fair to place the responsibility on each player for how they choose to respond to those incentives. Sort of the "character is who you are when nobody is looking (or it doesn't seem to matter)" thing.

 

[Wham with the Right Hand]

Mitchell's knee problem has been developing gradually over time from what Bickerstaff said. It would have been nice if he could have played fewer minutes but Porter isn't there yet and the league has a book on Merrill. It looks to me like Merrill is rushing his shots. Jerome being out was also a factor.

My hope for next year is that Donovan will play fewer minutes because Porter and Merrill will no longer be rookies and Jerome will be healthy.

 

[Dr No]

Mitchell's knee problem has been developing gradually over time from what Bickerstaff said. It would have been nice if he could have played fewer minutes but Porter isn't there yet and the league has a book on Merrill. It looks to me like Merrill is rushing his shots. Jerome being out was also a factor.

My hope for next year is that Donovan will play fewer minutes because Porter and Merrill will no longer be rookies and Jerome will be healthy.

the season-long Jerome injury is impactful. He is (or should have been) a competent guard off the bench to absorb some minutes. We've been fortunate that CPJ has been as good as he has been, and he may be the better player long term, but Jerome would have been better this year.

 

[2 For The Brew]

But we don't watch seasons in retrospect. We watch them as they are happening, without knowledge of how they will end, and without some certain link between taking it easy (or hard) during the regular season and winning a championship.

I can't think of a single LBJ-era Cavs season where the intensity of the regular season performances were even arguably a determining factor in the ultimate result. We didn't lose to the Magic and Celtics during LBJ's first stint because we played too hard during the regular season, and we didn't lose to Golden State in 16-17 and 17-18 because we took it easy.

So to prospectively accept low effort with the excuse that it will pay dividends later seems sketchy to me. And while you might not have been mad at LBJ for I consistent effort in 16-17 and 17-18 regular seasons, I was because many of those games were just painful to watch.




There are a lot of star/superstar players who play under those exact same incentives who choose differently than did LBJ. So I think it is perfectly fair to place the responsibility on each player for how they choose to respond to those incentives. Sort of the "character is who you are when nobody is looking (or it doesn't seem to matter)" thing.

But there wasn’t another superstar playing his seventh and eighth seasons in a row with four full playoff series like LeBron. Those were his fifteenth and sixteenth seasons. In the final year there was no Kyrie and LeBron had to take on a heavy load on the offense. To expect him to also play hard on the defensive end was not realistic imho. He had to drag the team to the Finals that season and he was pretty wiped.

In fact for 2017-18 he played all 82 games and led the league with 36.9 mpg.

The following year he had injury problems and missed the playoffs. He’s only played more than 57 games once as a Laker (67 in the Covid & Ring year). He’s played 57 this season. So for four of those seasons he would be ineligible for his all NBA selections.

Way off the thread topic but my overall point is that players do have limits and if you push them beyond their limits performance can suffer.

 

[benchplayer]

wrong thread