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Anyone have any feelings toward the alibaba ipo?
Yes. Buy in.

MSDW is underwriting the IPO. No idea what the price will be once the primaries feed but if you can somehow get in on the secondary I'd buy and monitor closely for a few days.

EDIT: found some info.

"The company raised the price range for its initial public offering to $66 to $68 for each American depositary share, up from $60 to $66...pushing up its potential haul from the stock sale to as much as $21.8 billion."
 
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If you want the alibaba IPO at the ADR share price, you should buy (should have already bought a month ago) Yahoo, who owns a ton of it. Here's an article that might help explain: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-...windfall-means-firepower-to-chase-google.html

I bought that shit for clients at 36$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

The real question is what is the smart $ doing? They could be shorting yahoo to lock in a gain. The other big one is where will the $ come from to buy the shares? AMZN already hit, prob gets hit some more in the next year. BABA is the anti-Amazon in many regards...
 
If you want the alibaba IPO at the ADR share price, you should buy (should have already bought a month ago) Yahoo, who owns a ton of it. Here's an article that might help explain: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-...windfall-means-firepower-to-chase-google.html

I bought that shit for clients at 36$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

The real question is what is the smart $ doing? They could be shorting yahoo to lock in a gain. The other big one is where will the $ come from to buy the shares? AMZN already hit, prob gets hit some more in the next year. BABA is the anti-Amazon in many regards...

In terms of conviction, Yahoo is about as reliable as Anderson Varejao's body.
What I read was wait until Yahoo sells off their shares, then buy alibaba. Post tax the yahoo value is down to $23B - Yahoo sells 140M shares, netting $8B.

What do you think? Would you go immediately in on the secondary on Sept. 19th or would you wait it out?
 
Here's what I wrote back in the day (7/31) to some clients:

YHOO is a buy. Here's a profitable company with a 24% stake in Alibaba, which is going to go public at $168B (avg estimate). Call it $150B. Yahoo has a $37B market cap. They are selling 9% of their 24% stake and assuming that's taxed at 35% (I doubt it will be), that's $8.775B. If the IPO goes off at my conservative estimate and doesn't rally (which it will, but anyway), the other portion of YHOO's stake is worth $22.5B. So with a conservative (or at least middle of the pack) set of assumptions, it values all of YHOO's "other" business stuff at $6B, which generated $1.2B of trailing EPS. So a mature, profitable internet stock that's profitable at a P/E of 5 with IPO upside? Sounds like a good risk/reward. If you fiddle with what Alibaba does post-IPO and think it will be a success, then you can arrive at some really juicy upside calculations.

You can run a similar set of calculations now that we have more data, like the share price of $66-68, and obviously you have to re-update YHOO's market cap. This one is tricky, and I am always looking at the risk/reward, almost as a ratio of upside to downside, as that governs position size. So it's tricky b/c you have to think about what the smart $ is doing, not what you should do now. For example, they all know that they could have owned (and did own) BABA via YHOO. They all knew the same stuff that I came up with (and probably did a better job at it). So whether or not they got pre-ipo shares, I am not sure that's relevant. The other thing is that the market has to absorb a ton of $, which has to come from somewhere. I think that's the key. Here's how I would play it:

-Short amazon. Whether right or wrong, $ will likely flow from AMZN into BABA. Since AMZN has focused on sales growth and not profit, yet BABA is profitable, I think the thesis for owning BABA is stronger and we will see Large Cap Growth managers make the switch. BABA will benefit from that phenomenon where people who haven't visited the website will see what it's about, and with AMZN having had such a run, I think BABA steals some market share.

-Buy call spreads on YHOO (buy the 44's and sell the 45's, which will cost $.28). If the IPO goes bananas, you get paid ~3.3/1. You could back out the BABA shares from YHOO and fiddle with the numbers based on what I wrote above and probably come up with the best vertical call spread to buy, then at least you have some "action" for a speculative investment. I haven't played with the above analysis with the new numbers, so I couldn't tell you what the right strike price is, but I think you get the idea (if you don't understand options, don't bother with any of this).

Me? Well the damage has been done and the easy money has been made. I will prob sell off 1/2 of the YHOO positions for clients on the day of (if things are going well), and just have them hold the rest. No way I am buying a company that's growing at 46% with a forward P/E of 44. I would rather troll for a lower price that I will never get:chuckle:
 
So when can you sell if you purchase stock on its IPO? Say it jumps day of, a week later, etc.
 
So buy yahoo because they invested in alibaba?
 
So I've lately been trying to bet on market overrecations.

For example CVS was down 16% after market hours yesterday to open market today. Their earnings call came out yesterday. They met their projection for this year but lowered their projected growth for next year.

For such an established company to actually MEET their projection and be devalued by 16%? My initial reaction was massive overreaction so I bought at 69.98. Closed at 73.53 and after hours up to 73.79. 5.4% return in a day. I actually had an order to sell at $75 and the daily high was.... 74.99. Fuck me. But oh well I'm quite happy with this. This was my first bet on such a thing and I am interested in researching similar trends more. I just felt there's no way the leader in pharmaceuticals in the US goes down in value by a fucking sixth because of lower than originally projected 2017 earnings.

Also @brownindian i saw your post was from a few years ago and if you had invested in gold you'd certainly already know this, but gold does not hold its value at all. It's EXTREMELY volatile and generally appreciates in value when trust in the treasury decreases
 
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So I've lately been trying to bet on market overrecations.

For example CVS was down 16% after market hours yesterday to open market today. Their earnings call came out yesterday. They met their projection for this year but lowered their projected growth for next year.

For such an established company to actually MEET their projection and be devalued by 16%? My initial reaction was massive overreaction so I bought at 69.98. Closed at 73.53 and after hours up to 73.79. 5.4% return in a day. I actually had an order to sell at $75 and the daily high was.... 74.99. Fuck me. But oh well I'm quite happy with this. This was my first bet on such a thing and I am interested in researching similar trends more. I just felt there's no way the leader in pharmaceuticals in the US goes down in value by a fucking sixth because of lower than originally projected 2017 earnings.

Also @brownindian i saw your post was from a few years ago and if you had invested in gold you'd certainly already know this, but gold does not hold its value at all. It's EXTREMELY volatile and generally appreciates in value when trust in the treasury decreases

Or when the market tanks like it's about to. A nearly 700 point loss for the DOW, and the president wasn't even elected yet.
 
Or when the market tanks like it's about to. A nearly 700 point loss for the DOW, and the president wasn't even elected yet.
If I thought Trump had a legitimate chance to win I would have invested heavily in a volatility index or heavily shorted an S&P index

I don't follow the election much but most people told me this was an impossibility so I didn't make any bets on the market
 
If I thought Trump had a legitimate chance to win I would have invested heavily in a volatility index or heavily shorted an S&P index

I don't follow the election much but most people told me this was an impossibility so I didn't make any bets on the market

Bingo. It was inevitable, and accelerated once this disaster happened.

It won't matter what policies pass, you will not save the market.
 
Dow up 8 points this morning, and because they're not continuing to fall, CNN runs headline about the market being steady.

As if we didn't drop 5% in one night.
 
Dow up 8 points this morning, and because they're not continuing to fall, CNN runs headline about the market being steady.

As if we didn't drop 5% in one night.

we didn't. The overnight numbers were futures, they rebounded - most of the rebound happened before Trump even gave his speech last night. Some people said OMG and sold, throwing their money away. Other people said OMG, look at that bargain, and bought futures at a steep discount and made a fortune.

Edit to add: The DOW is currently up slightly from yesterday's close.
 
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we didn't. The overnight numbers were futures, they rebounded.
Yeah that was misquoted by almost every news station I watched last night.

People made heavy bets against the market in the future last night, but no immediate plays on the market.

All in all I'm pretty surprised how stable the market has been today. I was hopeful to make some money.
 
we didn't. The overnight numbers were futures, they rebounded - most of the rebound happened before Trump even gave his speech last night. Some people said OMG and sold, throwing their money away. Other people said OMG, look at that bargain, and bought futures at a steep discount and made a fortune.

:chuckle:

Praise the lord.I hadn't read an article since I went to bed that said futures, nor heard it on TV--- thanks for the heads up.

Kinda shocked the futures market tanked out, though, but market holds steady. That kind of drop in futures often translates to irrational market fear which causes a decline.

Selfishly, though, hoping for a bubble so I can get in on the housing market when it lowers.
 
:chuckle:

Praise the lord.I hadn't read an article since I went to bed that said futures, nor heard it on TV--- thanks for the heads up.

Kinda shocked the futures market tanked out, though, but market holds steady. That kind of drop in futures often translates to irrational market fear which causes a decline.

Selfishly, though, hoping for a bubble so I can get in on the housing market when it lowers.

The futures took a sharp dive starting aboard 9pm when people first started realizing Trump could win. They bottomed out and had already nearly completely rebounded by the time he was declared the winner. Had it not rebounded, the markets certainly would have opened sharply down.

Lower tax rate for everyone (which will stimulate the economy) combined with a sharply lower corporate tax rate (more net profits), plus favorable terms for repatriating overseas earnings all should be good for the markets.
 

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