The Brian Hoyer thread...

[jlj3184]

I think that's probably part of it for some people. Otherwise, I think you've got some folks who are overrating him by measuring him on the "he's better than the shitty QB's we've had in the past" grading curve, and some who are underrating him because they are partial to Manziel and are upset he's not starting, or at least playing more. So when the people who underrate him argue with the people who overrate him, you get polarization.

This. And I'm by no means a Manziel guy - was pissed when we drafted him. Just because Hoyer has played better than Colt McCoy, Brandon Weeden, and Kelly Holcomb doesn't make him a top 10 QB.

He's made some good plays (throw to Gabriel last week, where Gabriel misjudged it; most of his intermediate throws have been decent) and some really bad plays (missing the handoff, underthrowing a wide open Hawkins by 8 yards in week 2, throwing from 6 yards beyond the LOS).

He hasn't hurt the team badly yet, so I'm fine with him keeping the starting gig. I just wish people were capable of calling a spade a spade. He's a fringe level starter who doesn't turn the ball over. There are much better quarterbacks out there and much worse quarterbacks out there. I'd rank him somewhere in the 15-18 range so far this season.

QBs I would definitely take over him: Manning, Rodgers, Brees, Luck, Ryan, Stafford, Rivers, Cutler, Wilson, Kaepernick, Newton, Flacco, Roethlisberger, Foles

Then he's in a group with guys like: Dalton, Brady, Cousins, Romo

 

[Soda]

I just wish people were capable of calling a spade a spade.

No, calling a spade a spade would be acknowledging that he's rated as the 10th best QB in the NFL this season at this point. It doesn't get any more plain and factual than that.

I think people have a problem with others being happy that he's rated 10th in the NFL right now, so there's a "he's a fringe level starter" movement happening to temper that ranking. Nobody's criticism in here is going to rise or drag down his rating to this point. A rating that has him in the top-10 after 3 games.

 

[Randolphkeys]

I think it sucks the local media (Steve Doerschuck for example) put it all on Hoyer... it looked like a catchable ball at the time Sunday. Happy Fox showed the replay gif.

 

[Damien O'Connel]

If hoyer leads Hawkins on that throw, Hawk gets blown up by 57 and likely drops it anyways. He has to have the vision to recognize the window, to expect the ball to be slightly behind. Receivers are just as responsible for creating throwing lanes as the QB is.

EDIT: The ball hit the top corner of the 6 on his jersey for crying out loud.

 

[AZ_]

A rating that has him in the top-10 after 3 games.

While this is nice, it's sample size issues like this as to why we aren't using the title of "Lonnie Chisenhall, AL Batting Champion."

Nobody is arguing that his QB rating isn't 10th in the NFL, they're arguing that he's not a Top 10 QB in the league. There is obviously a difference.

 

[jlj3184]

No, calling a spade a spade would be acknowledging that he's rated as the 10th best QB in the NFL this season at this point. It doesn't get any more plain and factual than that.

I think people have a problem with others being happy that he's rated 10th in the NFL right now, so there's a "he's a fringe level starter" movement happening to temper that ranking. Nobody's criticism in here is going to rise or drag down his rating to this point. A rating that has him in the top-10 after 3 games.

Mohammed Sanu has a QBR of 158.3...
Derek Anderson 119.8...
Ted Ginn Jr 108.3...

As always, stats only tell a portion of the story. The same arguments that will be used against those guys (small sample size) to discredit their stats need to be used with Hoyer. If he's still in the top 10 after 8-10 games, I'll re-evaluate. Regression to the mean.

 

[Randolphkeys]

Here is the hatchet job article I was referring to:

http://www.cantonrep.com/article/20140922/SPORTS/140929823

See, I understand some people already made up their minds about Hoyer a year ago. They spent a year clamoring for a "franchise QB" in the first round of the draft... and now they aren't ready to give up that position. I got it, you have pride, you don't want to flip flop. That's a totally cisgender hetero dude thing to do.

But when Hoyer goes something like 24/25 on passes through three quarters, has a number of things go against him out of his control in the fourth quarter, has Hawkins DROP a catchable third down ball... and the haters can only find room in their article to blast Brian Hoyer for not winning the game... sorry, it just makes me root for Hoyer even more and give Manziel less of a chance. Don't write about the run defense. Don't make mention of the corners getting burned repeatedly. Don't mention the Travis Benjamin brain fart on the last punt return... blast the guy who hit his receiver in his hands and pretend that the QB threw an uncatchable ball.

I don't hate Manziel and I don't hate the idea of drafting a franchise QB if one is available... but when I'm constantly reading people blame Hoyer when it isn't justified it makes me a little less open minded to them as options each and every time.

 

[AZ_]

I don't hate Manziel and I don't hate the idea of drafting a franchise QB if one is available... but when I'm constantly reading people blame Hoyer when it isn't justified it makes me a little less open minded to them as options each and every time.

This would happen far less without discussing Hoyer as a "winner" and "clutch," only to have him be neither when it counted on Sunday.

Sure, the ball could and probably should have been caught. Would have been a heck of a catch, quite frankly. But the ball wasn't where it needed to be, either.

 

[Randolphkeys]

This would happen far less without discussing Hoyer as a "winner" and "clutch," only to have him be neither when it counted on Sunday.

Sure, the ball could and probably should have been caught. Would have been a heck of a catch, quite frankly. But the ball wasn't where it needed to be, either.

I won't be passing you the potato salad anytime soon.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

No, calling a spade a spade would be acknowledging that he's rated as the 10th best QB in the NFL this season at this point. It doesn't get any more plain and factual than that.

That's just ridiculous. As was pointed out previously, folks defending Hoyer before last week were saying to ignore stats and just look at wins. Now that he had a good game but lost, we're told to ignore the loss and look at the stats. That's not even mentioning that the single stat of QB rating has long been criticized when used as the sole (or even best) measure on which to judge a QB's performance.

More importantly, after just three games, the ranking is far too volatile to draw any conclusions. He was 27th in YPA attempts and in % completions after 2 games. Do those concerns now vanish because he had one good game that brought those numbers up somewhat? Should the conclusion be "most of the time, he's going to be below average. One out of three games or so, he'll be above average."

I think people have a problem with others being happy that he's rated 10th in the NFL right now, so there's a "he's a fringe level starter" movement happening to temper that ranking. Nobody's criticism in here is going to rise or drag down his rating to this point. A rating that has him in the top-10 after 3 games.

This debate over Hoyer pre-dated the No. 10 rating he had after last week, so saying this dispute is just because some "people have a problem with others being happy that he's rated 10th in the NFL right now" is wacky.

And that's statement's pretty wacky no matter when this debate started.

 

[Soda]

That's just ridiculous. As was pointed out previously, folks defending Hoyer before last week were saying to ignore stats and just look at wins. Now that he had a good game but lost, we're told to ignore the loss and look at the stats. That's not even mentioning that the single stat of QB rating has long been criticized when used as the sole (or even best) measure on which to judge a QB's performance.

More importantly, after just three games, the ranking is far too volatile to draw any conclusions. He was 27th in YPA attempts and in % completions after 2 games. Do those concerns now vanish because he had one good game that brought those numbers up somewhat? Should the conclusion be "most of the time, he's going to be below average. One out of three games or so, he'll be above average."



This debate over Hoyer pre-dated the No. 10 rating he had after last week, so saying this dispute is just because some "people have a problem with others being happy that he's rated 10th in the NFL right now" is wacky.

And that's statement's pretty wacky no matter when this debate started.

Just for clarity purposes. Where is Hoyer's QB rank amongst QBs who have more than like 15 throws?

What is this?

It's just a matter of it just being what it is. That's what calling a spade a spade is.

 

[jlj3184]

Mohammed Sanu has a QBR of 158.3...
Derek Anderson 119.8...
Ted Ginn Jr 108.3...

As always, stats only tell a portion of the story. The same arguments that will be used against those guys (small sample size) to discredit their stats need to be used with Hoyer. If he's still in the top 10 after 8-10 games, I'll re-evaluate. Regression to the mean.

Right on queue:

Just for clarity purposes. Where is Hoyer's QB rank amongst QBs who have more than like 15 throws?

What is this?

It's just a matter of it just being what it is. That's what calling a spade a spade is.

Without getting into a discussion on the validity of QBR, his average stat line so far this season is 20/32, 239, 1/0. Decent, certainly. But Top 10?

 

[Soda]

Right on queue:

Without getting into a discussion on the validity of QBR, his average stat line so far this season is 20/32, 239, 1/0. Decent, certainly. But Top 10?

Well check ESPN and Hoyer's rankings amongst passers.. And, if you're going to try to devalue Hoyer based on a throw from a couple wide receivers, we have nothing more to discuss.

 

[AZ_]

Well check ESPN and Hoyer's rankings amongst passers.. And, if you're going to try to devalue Hoyer based on a throw from a couple wide receivers, we have nothing more to discuss.

Is Brian Hoyer a top 10 QB in the NFL?

Not in QB rating, but overall.

 

[Soda]

Is Brian Hoyer a top 10 QB in the NFL?

Not in QB rating, but overall.

No. I'm fairly confident that you will find that none of my posts reflect a belief otherwise, either.

What I won't do, though, is sit around during open season on Hoyer. Dude has been good for the team, no question in my mind.