The Jimmy Haslam Thread

[Hurl Bruce]

Yeah. We've had this conversation on RCF before when Gilbert slimed his way into pushing through the Sin Tax. Multiple studies show that subsidizing sports stadiums is a net negative for taxpayers/residents.

"Economists John C. Bradbury, Dennis Coates, and Brad Humphreys went through 130 studies over 30 years and concluded: “The large subsidies commonly devoted to constructing professional sports venues are not justified as worthwhile public investments.”

SAUCE:

Stadium Subsidies Are Massive Ripoffs That Don’t Help Cities

Most NFL, NBA, and MLB stadiums and arenas have received generous corporate welfare from state, county, and city governments. On average, taxpayers cover about 75% of the cost of building new stadiums. Politicians justify these subsidies by calling them investments. “My state gets $6.5 million a...

www.aei.org

I wonder what the difference is between dome vs open air?

 

[JDailey23]

Is there any proof these stadiums generate more for a city than what they cost?

I’m sure you can dig it up. I’d say easily over the life of the stadium it will. Taylor Swift generated $46 million in 2 days for Pittsburgh

 

[JDailey23]

“The stadium is currently estimated at 1.75 million square feet, with a capacity of approximately 60,000. It is anticipated to bring in year-round events, with aspirations to host Super Bowls, NCAA Final Fours, College Football Playoffs, Wrestlemanias, and more.”

That isn’t anywhere close to hosting a SB or WM.

 

[CBBI]

I’m sure you can dig it up. I’d say easily over the life of the stadium it will. Taylor Swift generated $46 million in 2 days for Pittsburgh

Then you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

Then you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[aldamon]

I’m sure you can dig it up. I’d say easily over the life of the stadium it will. Taylor Swift generated $46 million in 2 days for Pittsburgh

Revenue generation is not profit. They don't play enough games in NFL stadiums to justify their price. The issue at hand is how much is community identity worth? It's all basically pride and people justifying the expense because they like having an NFL team around. If I'm a community, I'm prioritizing a MiLB/MLB stadium or hockey/basketball arena (climate controlled) over a football just for schedule lengths alone and even those venues have dubious value. NFL stadiums spend most of their time empty. I'm a big fan of teams sharing stadiums but a 50% split is still a bad deal.

 

[FrontPageNews]

I wonder what the difference is between dome vs open air?

i would imagine if you can’t hold events in your stadium for weather reason then it’s not as profitable.

 

[eChameleon]

See, instead of a new stadium, I would just build a retractable roof that can only be closed for concerts, the inevitable Super Bowl the NFL would have us host, and games played during thunderstorms. Otherwise, have the roof cover all the seats but leave the field completely open to the elements.

 

[Lee]

See, instead of a new stadium, I would just build a retractable roof that can only be closed for concerts, the inevitable Super Bowl the NFL would have us host, and games played during thunderstorms. Otherwise, have the roof cover all the seats but leave the field completely open to the elements.

Puting a roof especially a retactable one isnt really cost effiecient, you would have to redo the foundation because of the extra weight, which means a half billion to billion dollar job to fix and roof an old stadium that is out to date. Its just not as easy as puting on a roof, seems silly really to spend that much money on a crappy band aid.

 

[bob2the2nd]

I’m sure you can dig it up. I’d say easily over the life of the stadium it will. Taylor Swift generated $46 million in 2 days for Pittsburgh

So I would say if stadiums were lasting 35-40 years with no improvements paid for by the tax payer, then probably over the course of the lifetime of the stadium they pay themselves off or at least get close. However CBS is now the 10th oldest active stadium in the NFL, and at the age of 24 is actively being discussed being replaced. So far between initial building and renovations the city of cleveland has spent ~315 Million on the stadium (550 million in todays dollars). As of this moment itt doesnt look like it will make it to the age of 30 without either being torn down or significant remodel, which isnt unusual, as every single stadium older than CBS (and including CBS) has undergone at least 100M in renovations, if not 200M+/full on replacement (like solider field for example). Sometimes its paid for the tax payer, sometimes it isnt. However the point stands that these stadiums are not only expensive to build they are also very expensive to keep.

 

[macbdog]

I’m sure you can dig it up. I’d say easily over the life of the stadium it will. Taylor Swift generated $46 million in 2 days for Pittsburgh

Oh wow, I wonder how much Cleveland made when Taylor played here.

 

[southernflyer]

I’m sure you can dig it up. I’d say easily over the life of the stadium it will. Taylor Swift generated $46 million in 2 days for Pittsburgh

Most sporting events and public works projects are overestimated. Tickets sales mostly go to the agent, tour promoter and act minus taxes, venue and tour expenses . Merchandise sold going to the artist. Staying in a Marriott hotel isn't largely being put back into the community. The $15 Swiftie Sangria or beers at the concert are going to a large food service vendor. With taxes, local restaurants and workers for the weekend, Pittsburgh maybe saw 10-20% of that total.

Funding sports stadiums, art venues or any specialty project rarely brings true investment back. Like the sin tax in Cleveland, Orlando/Orange County has a tourist bed tax that collects $500m a year and goes to fund tourism projects. We built an arts center a few years ago for $600m, get around $20-25m basic funding yearly and they want almost $200m to expand. The Camping World stadium/former Citrus Bowl wants $800m for a roof/renovations. The Amway Center and soccer stadiums ask for money every year.

 

[JDailey23]

Oh wow, I wonder how much Cleveland made when Taylor played here.

She’d never come to Cleveland now. They don’t have a big enough venue and CBS is a shit hole. But thanks for being a smartass.

 

[JDailey23]

Most sporting events and public works projects are overestimated. Tickets sales mostly go to the agent, tour promoter and act minus taxes, venue and tour expenses . Merchandise sold going to the artist. Staying in a Marriott hotel isn't largely being put back into the community. The $15 Swiftie Sangria or beers at the concert are going to a large food service vendor. With taxes, local restaurants and workers for the weekend, Pittsburgh maybe saw 10-20% of that total.

Funding sports stadiums, art venues or any specialty project rarely brings true investment back. Like the sin tax in Cleveland, Orlando/Orange County has a tourist bed tax that collects $500m a year and goes to fund tourism projects. We built an arts center a few years ago for $600m, get around $20-25m basic funding yearly and they want almost $200m to expand. The Camping World stadium/former Citrus Bowl wants $800m for a roof/renovations. The Amway Center and soccer stadiums ask for money every year.

I’ll agree with you. But if the city really wants to make this a destination city that can host major sporting events and big time concerts that generate a ton of money for the people and owners who live here, they’ll have to pony up.

 

[southernflyer]

I’ll agree with you. But if the city really wants to make this a destination city that can host major sporting events and big time concerts that generate a ton of money for the people and owners who live here, they’ll have to pony up.

I think Cleveland is better suited at the regional and mid-sized events. Chicago, Atlanta, Orlando, Vegas, New Orleans, NYC and Washington DC are all big players in tourism/conventions. Even mid-market you're competing with Denver, Austin, Columbus, St. Louis and Detroit. Once the merged Continental/United pulled their hub Cleveland lost many regional flights that would help the convention industry.

For larger events the Cleveland area needs more hotel rooms more than anything else. And those will only be built if the asses are already in the seats, not future potential growth.

Cleveland seems to get skipped for major concerts between Pittsburgh, Columbus, Cincinnati and Detroit. Is it worth hundreds of millions of dollars for another concert or two a month? Between Playhouse Square, Blossom, Rocket Mortgage, Jacob's Pavilion and House of Blues-type venues, they should be able to accommodate almost any concert setup.