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Three new Cavs add up to one big train wreck By John Hollinger

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http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/columns/story?co...nger_john&id=2317689

Three new Cavs add up to one big train wreck
By John Hollinger
ESPN Insider
Archive

They say good things come in small packages. But bad things can come in packages too, and not necessarily small ones.

For further proof, just take a look at this year's most disappointing players. As luck would have it, each has been packaged by fate with an equally disappointing partner, either by playing with him, being traded for him or being replaced by him.

Having already gone over my candidates for most improved, it's only fitting that I also present the list of candidates for the year's "least improved" -- those who dropped off last year's "most" list. Since the league won't be presenting an award in this category, I have my own name for it -- the All-Train Wreck team.

Before I present the list, note that I left off a few people whose problems seem more related to injuries than ineffectiveness – Peja Stojakovic, Tim Duncan, Quentin Richardson, Jamaal Tinsley and Jason Collins, for instance, don't appear on the list below.

And of course, you'll notice the members of the All-Train Wreck come in packages. For instance:


Larry Hughes and Antonio Daniels. Washington thought it had a replacement for the departed Hughes when it signed Daniels, but he's been arguably the most disappointing player in the entire league. The steady scoring off the bench that Daniels provided in Seattle instead turned into a stream of bricks this year. He's shooting a career-worst 37.5 percent from the floor, and his once passable 3-point shot is now hitting at ghastly 17.0 percent clip. In nearly the same minutes, his scoring average dropped from 11.2 to 6.9.

Here's the punch line -- it turns out the Wizards were screwed either way. Using their full midlevel exception on an unproductive Daniels was bad, but dropping $60 million to keep Hughes might have been worse. After a breakout 2004-05, Hughes struggled to mesh with LeBron James in Cleveland's backcourt. He somehow found a way to take nearly five fewer shots a game but still make more turnovers, and his league-leading steal total of a year ago has been cut nearly in half. Making matters worse, Hughes suffered his annual 20-game injury and is back on the injured -- 'scuse me, inactive -- list.

PER: "All-Train Wreck" Team
PLAYER 2004-05 PER 2005-06 PER DIFFERENCE
Antonio Daniels 18.08 10.86 7.22
Desmond Mason 14.72 7.55 7.17
Larry Hughes 21.63 14.56 7.07
Damon Jones 15.57 9.17 6.40
Donyell Marshall 19.92 14.13 5.79
Devin Brown 14.57 10.72 3.85
Michael Finley 14.34 10.50 3.84
Brent Barry 14.01 11.00 3.01
Jamaal Magloire 12.80 11.76 1.04


Desmond Mason and Jamaal Magloire. Is it possible for both teams to get the worst of a deal? Both Mason and Magloire have become significantly worse in their new homes, leaving execs in Milwaukee and Oklahoma City scrambling to hit the Ctrl-Z buttons.

Let's start with Mason, my choice for the worst offensive player in the league who still gets plays run for him. He's hitting a career-worst 37.8 percent with his weird, hands-way-out-in-front-of-the-body shooting motion, and finding time to commit nearly two turnovers a game on the side. He suddenly forgot how to pass, too, registering 0.9 assists per game.

As for the Bucks, Magloire was supposed to rebound from an injury-plagued 2004-05 campaign and solidify the Bucks' soft interior. Guess not. Milwaukee remains a poor defensive team even with the Big Cat, and his numbers have never approached those of his All-Star season in 2003-04. It's hard to know what's more puzzling -- how a guy who shot better than 70 percent from the line three years in a row can be mired at 54.3 percent this year, or how a guy who never gets the ball can still make 2.4 turnovers per game.

Michael Finley, Brent Barry and Devin Brown. San Antonio's wingmen (current and former) aren't looking nearly as mighty as they did a year ago. En route to the Spurs' championship, Barry and Brown played important roles off the bench with their shooting and ball handling. That hasn't been the case this year. Barry's normally reliable shot has deserted him -- for a guy who might be the best standstill shooter of the past decade, 34.7 percent on 3-pointers is unacceptable.

Meanwhile, Brown left as a free agent for Utah but forgot to take his game with him. The 6-foot-5 swingman is shooting a career-low 39.8 percent and has nearly doubled his turnovers from a year ago in similar minutes. It's been so bad that he was passed over for a start this week in favor of Milt Palacio.

Then again, his replacement hasn't done any better. Michael Finley was supposed to energize San Antonio's second unit with his offensive skills, but instead has looked very old. He's averaging a modest 9.4 points despite plenty of minutes (27.4 a game) and, like many players on this list, is shooting a career low at 38.3 percent.

Damon Jones and Donyell Marshall. It's kind of amazing to see the Cavs at 27-18 when you look at what a disaster their free agents have been. I mentioned Hughes above, but after the Cavs nabbed him, they turned their attention to Jones and Marshall, both of whom have been tremendous disappointments.

Jones, the self-proclaimed best shooter in the world, has disguised that fact exceptionally well this year. He's hitting only 36.9 percent overall and 35.7 percent on his trademark 3-point shots, both of which are huge declines from his breakout year in Miami in 2004-05. He's also annoying fans with his bragging and strutting, stuff that plays much better with the locals when the shots are falling. Since he's a sieve on defense and doesn't create shots for others, he needs to start finding the range.

At least Marshall has still been an effective player, but he's not nearly the weapon he was a year ago in Toronto. Marshall shot over 40 percent on 3-pointers for three straight seasons, but the trip across the border has devalued him to a mere 31.9 percent in Cleveland. With LeBron James providing him with plenty of open looks from his favored spot in the corner, that figure needs to improve.


John Hollinger writes for ESPN Insider. His book "Pro Basketball Forecast: 2005-06" is available at Amazon.com and Potomac Books. To e-mail him, click here.
 
that's just plain bogus analysis. When the pistons collectively put up less stats than they would on other teams, it's called being unselfish. When the cavs do the same thing, it's called a train wreck. :rolleyes:

Have he had some guys in slumps at times - sure. Is it a problem on the scale it's made out to be - not at all. It's impossible for all of our players to have the same statistics as last year. For that to happen, we'd have to average around 120 ppg. These guys weren't brought in to put up 120 ppg, they were brought in to spread the floor for LeBron and Z - and guess what, LeBron, Z and Drew all have a significantly improved FG% this year.

Does anyone think that Hughes, Marshall and Jones might just have something to do with that?

Is it a problem that their shot has been off? Of course it is, but it's not nearly as big a problem as it's being made out to be. Even in a slump, Damon is a better 3 point shooter than anyone we had last year and Marshall has been a major upgrade over Tractor.
 
going from McInnis/Newble/Tractor to Jones/Hughes/Marshall is not a train wreck, even with those guys having reduced FG%, they are each major upgrades vs who we had. And the thing about slumps is eventually guys break out of them.
 
LJ4MVP said:
It's impossible for all of our players to have the same statistics as last year. For that to happen, we'd have to average around 120 ppg. These guys weren't brought in to put up 120 ppg, they were brought in to spread the floor for LeBron and Z - and guess what, LeBron, Z and Drew all have a significantly improved FG% this year.

I don't think Hollinger is talking about people not hitting the same point, reb, and assist totals as last year. I think his point is that Marhsall and Jones were brought in to make shots and they haven't. They are getting a lot of WIDE OPEN looks, from that stand point they have been major dissappointments to me.
Hughes hasn't been healthy all year, so he has a point there too. I think the article was overly harsh and I'm sure I could find others more worthy of the "bust" label....but to a degree Hollinger is right. The productivity we have gotten out of those 3 to this point is way below anyone's expectations.

"Have we had some guys in slumps at times - sure." - My concern is these "slumps" for DJ & DM have already lasted half a season.
 
but even in a slump, they are better than the guys they replaced.
 
LJ4MVP said:
but even in a slump, they are better than the guys they replaced.

No one is arguing that....but all 3 have disappointed. Before this season everyone was saying we had one of the best off-seasons in the league. Now, half way through the season - Larry has played hurt or not at all, and Jones(.357) and Marshall(.319) who were supposed to improve our 3pt shooting problem, are our shooting problem. To put there %s in perspective, Ira(.358), JMac(.345) and Lucious Harris(.323) shot just as good or better last year. :chuckles:
 
LJ4MVP said:
but even in a slump, they are better than the guys they replaced.

I agree, but I don't think that's the point Hollinger's making. Should that be part of what makes a player a bust or not? Not sure. Let's say you have a crappy player averaging 8 pts per 30 min (I'm just making these up) and you bring in a guy who's been getting 18 per 30 min. But that guy slumps down to 10 pts. Is it a positive move? For the money you invested?

Again, I don't think Hollinger would disagree that Hughes, Marshall and Jones are upgrades. Personally I agree with him about Marshall and Jones. They've both been healthy and have been getting the same opportunities here that they got in Toronto and Miami. But I think ol' JH is being harsh on Hughes. The guy was playing through a broken finger and was still averaging 16 pts and 5 rebounds and playing hard D. It's obvious now that he's been out how much he means to this team. It also seems to me that he's the same kind of all-around player as Lebron, and that's actually harder to fit in with. Marshall and Jones are more specific role players - drop them into their spots and they should perform. With Larry, it's not unexpected that it should take some time.

And to compare him to the wankage that is Antonio Daniels right now - damn. That's cold.
 
Last year we only made 300 threes all year, this year we've already made 289.

And we have the 6th best record in the league, 9 games over .500, after missing the playoffs last year.
 
Hey I am not surprised....The media loves to hate us...All they do is find more things about our team to say how we really arent THAT good....screw them man and I think its pretty obvious we are a better team than last year...I mean Ira Newble was our starting SG last year IRA NEWBLE....tell me we arent a better team....after saying that Marshall and Damon need to step it up on the wide open three looks because they have been killing me with that shit
 
Notwithstanding that the Cavs are playing good basketball, even (a bit) better than last year at this time, Ferry's free agents (excluding Z) have been a disappointment. To me, Marshall's been the biggest disappointment. He came with the reputation of being one of the top three-point shooters in the NBA, a strong rebounder, and a good defender. He's rebounded ok, but his shooting "slump" is huge and his defense has been below average. Plus, the thing that worries me most, he looks like an old man on the court, and he's under contract for three and a half more years.

The only thing we expected about Jones is that he would be one of the top three-point shooters in the league. His "slump" hasn't been as bad as Marshall's, but he certainly hasn't lived up to his reputation. And, to make matters worse, his mouth is even worse than his defense. At least Lucious Harris could defend and kept his mouth shut.

The only signing about which reasonable people could argue is that of Hughes. He certainly doesn't look like a $12 million a year man to me, but he's a solid player on both ends of the court who presumably will shoot better, score more, and turn the ball over less with his broken finger healed.

Maybe Marshall and Jones will regain their shooting touch in the second half of the season, but right now they aren't justifying the $40 million tied up in their contracts.
 
LJ4MVP said:
Last year we only made 300 threes all year, this year we've already made 289.

And we have the 6th best record in the league, 9 games over .500, after missing the playoffs last year.

What was our record at this point last year?

McInnis was balling outta his mind the first half of the year as well.

They have been a bust, Marshall and Jones have been sucking it up all year, except Nov for Yella and Hughes hasnt even been on the court to help this team.

It has been a train wreck...will it continue to be that way? History tells with Hughes, yes. Jones has never been anybodyimportant til last year and Donyell is just sucking it up..who knows if it will turn around..

But the article may be harsh, but the points he is making are true.
 
LJ4MVP said:
Last year we only made 300 threes all year, this year we've already made 289.

And we have the 6th best record in the league, 9 games over .500, after missing the playoffs last year.

(((sigh))) Yes, indeed. Last year we missed 600 3's and this year we will miss 1200....we're shooting the same %. And our record is irrelevant to the topic of this thread which is that LH,DJ, and DM have been "disappointing players".

So let's cut to the chase, LJ4MVP.....and be honest -

1) Has Larry Hughes exceeded expectations, met expectations or disappointed?
IMO - He has been a disappoinment. I had hoped his injury bug was behind him, but he has played hurt since the pre-season and he will miss at least a quarter of the season. At 12-13M a year how could that not be a disaapointment to this point?

2) Has Donyell Marshall exceeded expectations, met expectations or disappointed?
IMO - He has been a disappointment. He shot 41% last year from 3-land....this year he is shooting 31%. His defense has been poor and his turnovers have doubled. When we wants he is a good rebounder, but he has underperformed.

3) Has Damon Jones exceed expectations, met expectations or disappointed?
IMO - He has been a major disappointment. He went from arguably the best shooter in the league statistically to a guy that can't hit free throws consistantly. His defense was worse than I could have imagined. He has also been a distraction and hurt chemistry with the attitude he brings to the table.

If you asked any one of the 3 players they would all agree that they are having disappointing years. If you asked Mike Brown or Danny Ferry and gave them truth serum....they'd agree too.
 
While they are certainly better then the players they replaced (particulary Hughes: who should get a pass as he is has been hurt) both Jones and Marshall are not playing as they can. While Jones has definitely improve IMO (he should have been playing like he has the last few weeks throughout the whole year), both Jones and Marshall take poorly advised shots and don't use the threat of the 3 to set up the rest of their games.

For the contracts they recieved, the way they are set up by one of the best playmakers in the league, and there talent they should be doing better then they have
 
i think the biggest difference and one that needs to be looked at, is at this time last year im sure the cavs had a very similiar record maybe slightly below what they are playing at now. That team was playing above its head, as the crash at the end of the season showed. This team on the other hand is playing below its capabilities and is still a better team. Assuming that the averages average themselves out and they always have a tendency to do that, hopefully you would see this team take off. While its an intresting topic to look at each player and say "oh they are a dissappointment" the big picture still needs to be kept in mind, this team is a better team and the record shows that.
 
Hughes is a quality asset to our team ...he hasn't played up to last season's production, but, didn't expect him to ...it's a different team. Donyell Marshall has filled his role very well. The good things to point out is that both should improve on their current statistics from this point on ...and even with them not playing to their standards ...we are 27-18. Damon Jones has truly been a major bust. He's not hitting his shots with the regularity needed to offset his horrendous game in all other areas. I'll keep Larry Hughes and Donyell Marshall and not lok back ...Damon Jones is another story.
 

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