Why Larry Dolan Needs to Sell the Cleveland Indians

[sjeppe]

Gilbert would bring us a winner even if it ment he lost money! hes a boss!

Gilbert can't buy the tribe, with owning the casino he is not allowed to own a MLB team

 

[Nom]

The guy has been the owner for 12 years - he OWNS the team - he can do whatever he wants. Maybe it's time to just accept him as owner, whether you agree or not, and move on to other issues on this team. Lord knows there are plenty of them.

 

[cavaliers4ever]

The biggest issue here is who would really want to buy this team? It's not like millionaires are falling all over themselves to be the next owners of the Tribe

 

[Huber.]

The biggest issue here is who would really want to buy this team? It's not like millionaires are falling all over themselves to be the next owners of the Tribe

It's always easy to find a buyer for a professorial sports team. I mean, if the Padres can sell so can the Indians. Although, I could see someone moving the Indians once the lease with the city is up in 2023 if attendance doesn't change and if a new city builds a ballpark. Progressive Field will be 30 years old then.

 

[Pyro]

Why do we need a new ballpark and where would we put it? The current one is completely fine.

 

[cavaliers4ever]

It's always easy to find a buyer for a professorial sports team. I mean, if the Padres can sell so can the Indians. Although, I could see someone moving the Indians once the lease with the city is up in 2023 if attendance doesn't change and if a new city builds a ballpark. Progressive Field will be 30 years old then.

But it's not like anybody's offered to buy the Indians and the Dolans turned them down. I just don't think the interest is there, especially not right now.

And that's another fear of mine, a new owner moving the team. I wouldn't care for that at all.

 

[Steve_424]

My thought process on this is very simple. Why should anybody be excited about the Indians? Why should anyone be following them or even giving them the time of day? No, it's not entirely fair. I mean, MLB is FUBAR. You know it is. But when does the culture of excuses stop? The Browns have new ownership, a talent infusion on the offensive side of the ball, and are giving people reasons for optimism. The Cavaliers have one of the best young players in the league, an owner that is literally a rock star to the fans (again: perception is EVERYTHING! It's been said over and over, and it's so true), and whatever you say, Gilbert has clearly convinced the fans that he will do whatever it takes to win. Then you have the Indians. Their front office has given the fans one playoff appearance in 11 years. They've clearly blown yet another supposed "window of contention." The fans have seen them trade away star player after star player and get mediocrity or worse in return. Then you have an owner who makes excuses (no matter how valid they are; we get it, they are handicapped by the league but so is the majority of teams) and appears lethargic and this trickles down to the FO. Sure, people like b00bie and Nom and sgm have a million counters to each of these points, and a lot of them are even valid ones. At the end of the day, they are excuses and whether you like it or not, this is how your fans view you. What have you done to change that perception? Maybe you tried. Your last move was over a year ago. You traded some prospects for a pitcher, who ended up being mediocre as fuck. Failure.

Sports, like many things, are very results oriented. Everybody is trying to win. Not everybody does.

We've seen the Browns fire an FO every other year. Well, with the Indians you have the opposite extreme.

So I pose the question again: what exactly do the Indians have going for them?

I don't know how anyone can argue it's time for a regime change with the Indians. I stopped watching a while ago. I stopped following. This post isn't made as a rip on the Tribe. I'm past that point. They don't frustrate me anymore because I don't let them. You could say I am "over" them. I am apathetic to them. Yet somehow, I keep coming back to this forum because the plight of the Indians- and their story- just fascinates and dumbfounds me so much. It's inexplicable.

I'll always be happy if the Tribe gets good and someday wins a World Series. Me, personally, though- I've just given up hoping for it and moved on. Ownership change is probably the only thing that could get me out of this state, to be honest, and I only tell you how I feel in such detail because I believe that a lot of people are feeling the same way.

Anyways, just a few thoughts.

1) Why should anyone get excited about the Browns?

-13 seasons
- 2 winning seasons
- 1 playoff appearance
- 0 playoff wins

Their top draft pick is heading to Dr. James Andrews (never good), their star corner just failed a drug test, they've already lost two important defensive players, and they're starting a 28 year old rookie QB. It will not be a pretty season.

2) Why does Larry Dolan get bashed for letting superstars go but Dan Gilbert does not?

LeBron is a giant d-bag. But Gilbert (and we) helped to create that monster. Why does he get a pass?



The answer to both of those questions is the same as my answer to why anybody should be excited about the Indians - we love Cleveland sports teams, we support our teams, and we are trying to be optimistic. Remember when the Browns drafted Weeden? This was the thought process of most fans:

Initial - What the hell? Why did we just trade up to draft a 28 year old!?!?
After 20 minutes - Holmgren knows quarterbacks...Heckert drafts well...maybe the Browns know something we don't know here. Maybe we just got the steal of the draft.
After 3 days - Weeden has a cannon. He's older, so he's more mature. I think this is going to work out.
Today - (Not kidding) I heard a Browns fan compare him to Ben Roethlisberger.

Let's go to Dion Waiters:

Initial - What the hell? Dion Waiters!?!? He didn't even start in college!!!!
After 20 minutes - Grant seems to do his homework...Byron Scott loves him...maybe the Cavaliers know something we don't here. Maybe we just got the steal of the draft.
After 3 days - Waiters is an explosive scorer. He didn't start, but some players are better pros than college players. He's going to work well with Kyrie - I think this is going to work out.
Today - I've heard people compare him to Dwyane Wade.

This isn't to bash Browns/Cavaliers fans. I am a huge fan of both teams, and I do the same thing with the Indians. I talk myself into believing that Jason Kipnis might be the next Pedroia, that Carlos Santana will be a superstar, and that Justin Masterson will become a true ace. We talk ourselves into believing the best will happen because we love our teams so much that we desperately want the best to happen.

The main difference? Indians fans are called out on it.

I love the Indians, Browns, and Cavaliers. I am excited to watch all three any chance I get. I believe, deep down, even if it's not realistic, that they'll all win a championship before I die. Why? Because there's no sense being anything but positive.

I have no problem when people choose to not follow a team. It's a right that we all have and I respect that. But to say that the Indians have a "culture of excuses" while the Browns are "giving people reasons for optimism"...? I'm not sure I can buy into that.

Let's be honest - the Browns get a pass for their failures because Cleveland is a "Browns Town"...the Cavaliers get a pass for their failures because fans love Dan Gilbert...and the Indians don't get a pass for their failures because, fair or not, most fans are anti-Larry Dolan.

 

[Chris]

1) Why should anyone get excited about the Browns?

-13 seasons
- 2 winning seasons
- 1 playoff appearance
- 0 playoff wins

Their top draft pick is heading to Dr. James Andrews (never good), their star corner just failed a drug test, they've already lost two important defensive players, and they're starting a 28 year old rookie QB. It will not be a pretty season.

Easy.

Hope for the future. Which I already said. With a new owner and more and more talent stockpiling, it's easy for fans to see the team moving in the right direction.

Indians? It's almost the exact opposite. The little talent currently present on the team is either underperforming or the fans already have a countdown clock to their departure within the next couple years. Ownership and FO remain in a state of excuses and endless "evaluation" with little change to, well, anything.

I just don't think you get it, to be honest. And that's fine, whatever, like I said my post wasn't made to call people out or to ruffle the feathers of the usual suspects. You make an interesting point about giving Dan Gilbert a free pass on LeBron, but I just think it's too little, too late. With the Indians, this goes back 11 years. It's time for a change. Time for the culture of excuses to stop. I'll say it again: sports are results oriented. What have the Indians done to warrant their FO or ownership sticking around? Nothing at all, really. And the reason your assault on the Browns/Cavs situations fails so badly is because neither of them have had the same FO and same ownership with 1 playoff appearance in over a decade.

You're also right about fans talking themselves into being optimistic. You're welcome to do as you like. With the Indians, I just can't fool myself anymore. I see nothing but a gaping black hole of shit, and I'm not gonna lie I have absolutely zero hope for anything in their future. A static FO, static ownership, in an unfair league. It's too much. More power to anyone who is keeping the faith.

I have no problem when people choose to not follow a team. It's a right that we all have and I respect that. But to say that the Indians have a "culture of excuses" while the Browns are "giving people reasons for optimism"...? I'm not sure I can buy into that.

Let's be honest - the Browns get a pass for their failures because Cleveland is a "Browns Town"...the Cavaliers get a pass for their failures because fans love Dan Gilbert...and the Indians don't get a pass for their failures because, fair or not, most fans are anti-Larry Dolan.

Well, when have the Browns made excuses? They've just fired people that they (Lerner) didn't think were doing a good job. And now there's a new HMFIC in town. I'd count that as being light years ahead of the Indians simply on ownership change alone.

So, why are the fans anti Dolan? Would they be anti Dolan if there were more than 1 playoff appearance in 11 years with the same FO in place?

 

[Steve_424]

Easy.

Hope for the future. Which I already said. With a new owner and more and more talent stockpiling, it's easy for fans to see the team moving in the right direction.

Indians? It's almost the exact opposite. The little talent currently present on the team is either underperforming or the fans already have a countdown clock to their departure within the next couple years. Ownership and FO remain in a state of excuses and endless "evaluation" with little change to, well, anything.

I just don't think you get it, to be honest. And that's fine, whatever, like I said my post wasn't made to call people out or to ruffle the feathers of the usual suspects. You make an interesting point about giving Dan Gilbert a free pass on LeBron, but I just think it's too little, too late. With the Indians, this goes back 11 years. It's time for a change. Time for the culture of excuses to stop. I'll say it again: sports are results oriented. What have the Indians done to warrant their FO or ownership sticking around? Nothing at all, really. And the reason your assault on the Browns/Cavs situations fails so badly is because neither of them have had the same FO and same ownership with 1 playoff appearance in over a decade.

You're also right about fans talking themselves into being optimistic. You're welcome to do as you like. With the Indians, I just can't fool myself anymore. I see nothing but a gaping black hole of shit, and I'm not gonna lie I have absolutely zero hope for anything in their future. A static FO, static ownership, in an unfair league. It's too much. More power to anyone who is keeping the faith.



Well, when have the Browns made excuses? They've just fired people that they (Lerner) didn't think were doing a good job. And now there's a new HMFIC in town. I'd count that as being light years ahead of the Indians simply on ownership change alone.

So, why are the fans anti Dolan? Would they be anti Dolan if there were more than 1 playoff appearance in 11 years with the same FO in place?

You're right, I don't get it. I don't get how you can say sports are results-oriented and then turn around and say the Browns give you optimism. I don't see the Browns having all kinds of talent but the Indians not having much of it (I think they have similar talent - both a handful of good, young core players). The ironic part is your mention of a "culture of excuses"...kind of describes the "It's a Browns Town" response you get for why fans give better support to the Browns than they do theCavs/Indians, despite the Browns' horrid on-field resume.

By the way, if we are talking track records, the Indians management team has built two championship contenders (2005 and 2007), the Cavaliers' management team has produced several championship contenders, and the Browns management team(s) have produced...?

 

[Chris]

New ownership + increased results (more talent on team) since new FO= reason for optimism. You can't judge people after one week, or even 2 years in pro sports. 11 years is more than enough, I think you'd agree. These are really simple concepts. I'm trying to think of a less adequate FO/Owner tandem that has remained in place for such a long period of time, I'm sure there is one but I can't think of it.

If you can't see how the Browns' talent is steadily increasing and is more significant than the Indians' in their respective sports, this is pointless because you're just refusing to see the truth. The Indians have a few players with something above marginal potential, and one of them is underperforming so horrendously people were lamenting he couldn't be sent down to the minors, and two others already have a foot out the door.

 

[InBoobieWeTrust]

1) Why should anyone get excited about the Browns?

-13 seasons
- 2 winning seasons
- 1 playoff appearance
- 0 playoff wins

Their top draft pick is heading to Dr. James Andrews (never good), their star corner just failed a drug test, they've already lost two important defensive players, and they're starting a 28 year old rookie QB. It will not be a pretty season.

Because they play football.

2) Why does Larry Dolan get bashed for letting superstars go but Dan Gilbert does not?

LeBron is a giant d-bag. But Gilbert (and we) helped to create that monster. Why does he get a pass?

Gilbert didn't "let" LeBron go. He offered him more money than any other team in the league. He had a payroll competing with the L.A./NY powerhouse payrolls in LeBron's last few seasons. He spent a ton of money formulating the presentation they gave to LeBron, he fired the coach LeBron didn't like anymore and got a guy with plenty of bling. He was also in position to throw down even more money on payroll to bring in Bosh via S&T.

Then, once LeBron left, Gilbert opened his wallet again. [/quote]

Let's be honest - the Browns get a pass for their failures because Cleveland is a "Browns Town"...the Cavaliers get a pass for their failures because fans love Dan Gilbert...and the Indians don't get a pass for their failures because, fair or not, most fans are anti-Larry Dolan.

But not without reason. Larry Dolan has had 12+ years and multiple rebuild attempts to right the ship, and 2007 was the pinnacle and since then it hasn't been pretty. Dan Gilbert steadily improved the Cavaliers until they were considered an elite team in the league, and this is literally his first crack at a rebuild. If he fails to make the right decisions(like Dolan has), and the Cavaliers end up getting decent again but not good enough and have to blow things up again, then I think Dan Gilbert will start to receive a lot of flak.

Even look at RAndy Lerner, he received a ton of hate/flak, and now the Browns have a new owner so it sort of re-starts their clock.

I think you make a lot of good points, but you might be too kind to the Dolans in a lot of them. I'm not even saying their poor decisions have involved not spending money, I understand the market constraints, but they are the guys who pick the people who make baseball decisions and the baseball decisions made over the last 12 years have produced underwhelming and at times embarrassing results.

 

[Huber.]

Why do we need a new ballpark and where would we put it? The current one is completely fine.

If a new city that actually would supported the team were to build a brand new stadium then why wouldn't Dolan move the team? The ballpark is just "alright" now compared to newer ballparks. I have been around to newer ballparks and they have much better site lines and better amenities. I'm not saying the team would move just because of Progressive Field but rather the lack of support from fans. If things don't change and we are constantly at the bottom of attendance for 10 more years then why would whoever owns the team want to stay here? If Cleveland doesn't want to support a baseball team that's fine but don't expect the team to be here forever for whenever they decide to jump on the random 1/2 out of 10 seasons bandwagon and think that's enough.

 

[Pyro]

So really you don't think the stadium is that bad, you just think we need a new one with less seats so we don't see a big expanse of green when we aren't doing good.

 

[The Oi]

Why do I keep hearing about the free passes the Browns kept getting? Browns attendance has been on a steady decline for the last 5-6 years and fans trashed the shit out of them publicly. Dumbass Big Dawg or whatever the hell he is went and met with Randy Lerner to bitch about the team. The Browns are roundly booed by the fans that do attend games and there's been a ton of animosity towards specific players and coaches for years now.

The Browns have not been getting a free pass. Even with the new FO and supposed infusion of talent, attendance has decreased the last couple years. Dolan and Indians defenders continue to push this legend that Browns fans are like some kind of smiling, drooling lobotomy patients who don't respond negatively when the team sucks.

Not that it should really matter anyways. You're either good at what you do or you're not. On paper, no Cleveland team appears to be good at what it does right now. Let's see if the Browns and Cavs can prove otherwise. My expectations are high for their management and their new players because I can actually see what the plan is and recognize positive on field performance by the players drafted and acquired by those teams...so we'll see what happens. If it turns out the Browns blew the 2011 and 2012 drafts...then they'll get trashed and attendance will continue to drop. If the Cavs blew the Waiters and Zeller picks...same thing. But my expectations remain high for both franchises in terms of acquisition and development of talent. Good records should follow.

My expectations are low for everything surrounding the Indians as they have been for the last 5 years. The plan is identifiable- as it's the same thing all small market teams do. Problem is...the execution has been brutally bad and ownership is unrelatable.

 

[Huber.]

So really you don't think the stadium is that bad, you just think we need a new one with less seats so we don't see a big expanse of green when we aren't doing good.

No I don't think we need a new stadium at all we need fans. If they move it will be more of the lack of fans but the stadium getting older just adds to it. I was just saying hypothetically if a new city wanted a MLB team and built a MLB sized ballpark (let's say Charlotte) to get one there is nothing that will keep the Indians from moving the way the attendance has been.




It does need a major renovation by tearing down the upper deck RF stands, adding more mezzanine seats while taking out the suites, adjust the lower box/upper Reserved 1st and 3rd site line angles, new seats and a wider concourse....but the city is broke and a tax increase would never pass.