Windhorst-WKNR

[QuadrupleDouble]

So for those who want dion off the bench, don't we need some d surrounding kyrie and love?

I guess well have three players that don't play d, but lebron and Andy will cover all that up

 

[Futuredome]

Waiters doesn't play D?

 

[Bandwagoner305]

Waiters doesn't play D?

He's a better defender than Kyrie and the best defensive SG on the roster, but he's not a good defender. He'll play hard, but he can't lockdown guys.

 

[Cashius X]

He's a better defender than Kyrie and the best defensive SG on the roster, but he's not a good defender. He'll play hard, but he can't lockdown guys.

No, he actually is a good defender. Great on-ball defender. Where he struggles is off-ball defense...haven't been paying enough attention to him in that area this pre-season to see if that area of his game has improved.

Also, how the hell are you going to comment on his defense when you literally just became a Cavs fan a couple months ago?!

 

[shoes22]

Also, how the hell are you going to comment on his defense when you literally just became a Cavs fan a couple months ago?!

To be fair, the guy the PD hired to be the Cavs beat reporter only became a Cavs fan a couple months ago too, and that doesn't stop him from giving his opinion either.

 

[Cashius X]

To be fair, the guy the PD hired to be the Cavs beat reporter only became a Cavs fan a couple months ago too, and that doesn't stop him from giving his opinion either.

I don't have a problem with anyone, Cavs fan or not, giving their opinion. Just annoying seeing people speak as if their word is fact, when they haven't had as much exposure to our roster as we have.

 

[BimboColesHair]

He's a better defender than Kyrie and the best defensive SG on the roster, but he's not a good defender. He'll play hard, but he can't lockdown guys.

Please, convince me he is not a good defender...I really want you to try:

Keep in mind 15 is the league average for PER.

 

[CosmoKramer]

@Tornicade @BimboColesHair

I've seen his opponent PER a lot concerning Dion's defense, how much does that really prove Dion is an above-average defender?

An opponent PER of 14.2 at SG is slightly above-average, but that's looking at every single shooting guard in the entire league. 28 of the 30 NBA teams (including the Cavs) had a player start at shooting guard for them with a lower opponent PER than Dion's 14.2 against SGs last year:

ATL - Kyle Korver - 12.8
BRK - Joe Johnson - 13.8
BOS - Jordan Crawford - 10.9
CHA - Gerald Henderson - 11.1
CHI - Jimmy Butler - 11.0
CLE - C.J. Miles- 13.5
DAL - Monta Ellis -12.9
DEN - Evan Fournier - 13.6
DET - Kentavious Caldwell-Pope - 13.6
GS - Klay Thompson - 12.4
HOU - James Harden - 13.9
IND - Lance Stephenson - 11.0
LAC - J.J. Reddick - 10.8
LAL - Kent Bazemore - 13.1
MEM - Courtney Lee - 12.1
MIA - Ray Allen - 12.1
MIL - O.J. Mayo - 12.8
MIN - Kevin Martin - 12.8
NO - Anthony Morrow -12.8
NYK - J.R. Smith - 13.2
OKC - Thabo Sefolosha - 15.0
ORL - E'Twaun Moore - 13.5
PHI - Elliot Williams - 13.5
PHO - Goran Dragic - 10.3
POR - Wesley Matthews - 12.9
SAC - Marcus Thornton - 13.7
SA - Danny Green - 11.0
TOR - DeMar DeRozan - 12.7
UTA - Gordon Hayward - 14.6
WAS - Bradley Beal -13.2


So many red flags in there I don't even know where to begin. There's pretty clearly a problem with using opponent PER as a reasonable judge of defensive abilities- James Harden (13.9) does not defend shooting guards anywhere near as well Avery Bradley as (17.2), how on Earth does he have a lower opponent PER?

 

[Douglar]

Opp Per also used to regularly indicate that Damon Jones was the ace defender on the team and that Varejao and Eric Snow were the weak links.

 

[BimboColesHair]

Individual defense is probably one of the hardest metrics to find a good stat for. There is no real good way to look through numbers to prove it (do you use on court/off court numbers? Opponent numbers when maybe your team is allowing your man to beat you in an effort to freeze out others? Scheme and players around you effecting those numbers? Etc.), but it isn't just about the PER in those numbers I posted, @CosmoKramer. I feel like you overlooked the eFG%, turnovers, and iFG% that are all above average, it's just PER is more well known to fans as to what is good and what is bad, so I use it more. I think it is known pretty well to everyone here who has watched the past few years that Dion is a good on-ball defender...it's his off-ball defense that needs work.

 

[Tornicade]

these conclusions though arent solely based on opponent per.
but lets look at Damon Jones since he was brought up.
is last fill season was 2005-2006
he had an opponent per of 17.0
at pg position he was rated at 19.6 and 12.5 at the sg position.
There several differences that account for the opponent per rating. SG's went inside 23% of the time compared to 30% for point guard and shooting guards shot a full percentage worse.
the question here is when Damon Jones played point guard was he really guarding the SG. Eric Snow shared the backcourt with Jones most of the time they were sharing the backcourt. The team was 5 points better defensively when snow was on court. This would indicate that when the Cavs went small. Snow would be on the opponent back court primary offensive threat

his time at the 2 was 18% minutes whereas his pg time was 33%.

What stands out though is the team was 4 points worse defensively when he was on the court.

the next season Jones saw a drop in his minutes. from 53% of the teams minutes to 28%. yes he had an opponent per of 14. once again though the defense gave up 5 points more when he was on court than off. his minutes at point guard was 18.9 whereas his minutes at shooting guard was 10.9. once again he had snow and gibson on the court when he was playing shooting guard and spent most of his minutes with pavlovic as a point guard.

I also think that stat recording is far more accurate now at 82 games than it was 7 years ago but the numbers and lineups dont support jones as a good defender.

Bring Dion into the mix.

not only do you have defensive data from nbawowy which shows improved defensive performance of the backcourt when paired with Dion compared to how they paired with others.
You also have on off court data to support Dions performance.

the team was 3 points better defensively when Dion was on the court. two position that dion filled in for opponents shot less than 42%. His primary role defensively guarding the 2 his opponent shot 49%. which is great but not that bad either.. especially when the majority of guards were giving up over 50% efg.

When the ratings show an anomaly there is typically other data to support or refute that anomaly.

Browns frustration with waiters defense was typically out of placing high expectations on that end out of waiters. even when he was asked to guard much taller small forwards.

Waiters improvement from year 1 to year 2 is also pretty clear. The defense was 5 points better when he was OFF the court and he gave up an efg of 56%.

There's nothing to Indicate that we will see anything but an improvement in Waiters consistency at defense. He talks about it more and seems more focused on continuing to improve on that side of the court.

his exact weakness on defense can be supported on mysynergy.com.. unfortunately the NBA bought them out and they are now exclusive to the NBA. hopefully those advance stats will be available on NBA.com to go along with the player tracking data.

you can measure a players effectiveness defensively. its still in the primitive stages but its an evolving area. Its does seem more reliable than to take someone word on it after they see Dion get beat on a play someone else blew their assignment.

another tool is to watch the plays themselves which NBa.com makes available.

 

[CavsFan005]

"They are going to bring Mike Miller in at 7 minutes in the 1st quarter and say hey dion look the bench isn't that bad" - I don't believe that for a minute. That will create a dysfunctional locker room. I agree Waiters needs to be 6th man if we can pick up another starter, but Millers D is no existent. That would be like a slap in the face to Waiters that's not what u want to do Blatt

 

[CosmoKramer]

Individual defense is probably one of the hardest metrics to find a good stat for.

Tell me about it, now that Synergy isn't available to the public we're back to square one.

There is no real good way to look through numbers to prove it (do you use on court/off court numbers? Opponent numbers when maybe your team is allowing your man to beat you in an effort to freeze out others? Scheme and players around you effecting those numbers?

IMO Synergy's point per possession numbers blew on/off numbers and defensive rating out of the water as a metric for individual defense, it's the only one of the three that begins to try and separate an individual's contributions from the team.

but it isn't just about the PER in those numbers I posted, @CosmoKramer. I feel like you overlooked the eFG%, turnovers, and iFG% that are all above average, it's just PER is more well known to fans as to what is good and what is bad, so I use it more.

His other numbers are much like his opponent PER, whereas they aren't nearly as impressive when stacked up to other SGs. James Harden beat Dion in almost category you gave, and he was absolutely atrocious on defense last year.

I think it is known pretty well to everyone here who has watched the past few years that Dion is a good on-ball defender...it's his off-ball defense that needs work.

Completely agree Dion is a good on ball defender, I've said as much in the past. But as of last year he's still a bad defensive player, his poor off ball movement negates the small positive he brings while guarding ball handlers. Making correct rotations, sticking close to shooters, re-routing cutters- these types of small nuisances make up the majority of defensive responsibilities a player sees in a single possession.

I love that Dion isn't afraid to throw his weight around against bigger players (still find it hilarious he body checked LeBron last year in Cleveland), but he's a notorious ball watcher that was constantly drifting through his rotations. Until we see a drastic improvement this year (a legit possibility with his increased effort) I don't think I'm ready to call him a good defender.

 

[CosmoKramer]

Eric Snow shared the backcourt with Jones most of the time they were sharing the backcourt.

Thanks for clearing that up Torn.

 

[Damien O'Connel]

Anyone who thinks that Blatt will be THAT passive aggressive with benching Dion doesn't live in the real world.

Blatt is known for being a straight shooter and being honest with players at all times. Suddenly he's trying to trick Dion into coming off the bench?

I don't buy it. Media is already drumming up the storyline that Dion will be the problem on this team, as LBJ predicted.

C'mon Windy. You're better than that.