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2019 MLB Trade Deadline

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Coyote said:
That's not at all what he was saying. Read better.



Statements like these are the problem. You and the rest mean it in terms of judging a player's production, which makes sense. From a common sense, non-stats-person perspective, RBIs are important because they are...runs. You're saying they are meaningless "in an of themselves" which is like saying runs don't matter. From a casual perspective, this seems insane. I know it's not what you mean, but still.
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These advanced stats are the problem. Give me Albert Belle, Manny Ramirez, Kenny Loften, Babe Ruth, Greg Maddox. You can invent stats to prove they will loose. And even come up with real stats that say they did not win a WS. Compared to what? I guess its old school observation -vs stats. We are probably agreeing to a certain extent. Just not crossing the t's and doting the I's. And that's cool. I am an old school fan. Win or go home, fuck you stats...……...so be it. No offence meant, probably just not understanding each others points.
 
Coyote850 said:
These advanced stats are the problem. Give me Albert Belle, Manny Ramirez, Kenny Loften, Babe Ruth, Greg Maddox. You can invent stats to prove they will loose. And even come up with real stats that say they did not win a WS. Compared to what? I guess its old school observation -vs stats. We are probably agreeing to a certain extent. Just not crossing the t's and doting the I's. And that's cool. I am an old school fan. Win or go home, fuck you stats...……...so be it. No offence meant, probably just not understanding each others points.
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But advanced stats all say those guys are the best of best, and all-time greats (yes, even Lofton).

You're inventing arguments no one is making, and ignoring the things we are saying (I guess you're just preparing me for school starting back up in a few weeks :chuckle:)
 
Out of the Rafters at the Q said:
@Coyote850

Let me give you four different scenarios:
  1. One out, nobody on in Progressive Field. Batter A hits a 380-foot home run to right-center.
  2. One out, bases loaded at Progressive Field. Batter B hits a 380-foot home run to right-center.
  3. One out, nobody on at Kaufmann Field. Batter C hits a 380-foot flyout 7 feet short of the wall in right-center.
  4. One out, bases loaded at Kaufmann Field. Batter D hits a 380-foot flyout 7 feet short of the wall in right-center. The runner on third tags and scores.
Which of these batters is the best hitter?

There are a few different answers.

Answer A would be to say that one of the hitters is definitely better than another, even though each one did the exact same thing--hit a ball 380 feet to right-center.

Answer B would be to say that all the hitters are equal.

Answer C would be to ask more questions. What pitch was thrown? What was the expected MLB result off that pitch? What was the weather like?

Just because Batter B put in 4 RBI's doesn't mean he's a better hitter than Batter A. When we rely on old counting stats like RBI's, this is what we end up with.

Just because they all had the exact same result doesn't mean the situations were equal. This is similar to using a basic metric like OPS.

When we put together as much information as we possibly can, this is when we get into advanced stats and modern day baseball.
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This is a really great post.
 
Coyote850 said:
These advanced stats are the problem. Give me Albert Belle, Manny Ramirez, Kenny Loften, Babe Ruth, Greg Maddox. You can invent stats to prove they will loose. And even come up with real stats that say they did not win a WS. Compared to what? I guess its old school observation -vs stats. We are probably agreeing to a certain extent. Just not crossing the t's and doting the I's. And that's cool. I am an old school fan. Win or go home, fuck you stats...……...so be it. No offence meant, probably just not understanding each others points.
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Alright, you got your attention.

Stop trolling the thread.
 
Coyote850 said:
These advanced stats are the problem. Give me Albert Belle, Manny Ramirez, Kenny Loften, Babe Ruth, Greg Maddox. You can invent stats to prove they will loose. And even come up with real stats that say they did not win a WS. Compared to what? I guess its old school observation -vs stats. We are probably agreeing to a certain extent. Just not crossing the t's and doting the I's. And that's cool. I am an old school fan. Win or go home, fuck you stats...……...so be it. No offence meant, probably just not understanding each others points.
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Sir, you are not making salient points here. Besides the fact you don't know these players' names, they are all hall of fame worthy players who have excellent metrics all-around.

"You can invent stats to prove they will loose [sic]" is straight bullshit. Not a single person here is saying any of those players are bad, and all of their metrics are fantastic.

It's not "old school observation." It's you refusing to understand what people are telling you. You are being stubborn and it's disrupting any possible discourse in this forum.

Everyone wants wins. But how do you build a winner? Put the best players on the field... and how do you measure how good a player is? You even do it yourself when you bring up home runs, batting average, and RBI's--STATS. The stats you are using just are not the best way to measure players. There have always been better ways to measure players, and today those ways are available to us.

Please, take some time and read about all this information. Check out the FAQ at Fangraphs. And before we engage any further, please read my post above: https://realcavsfans.com/index.php?threads/2019-mlb-trade-deadline.49595/page-90#post-3273749
 
AZ_ said:
You’re comparing Puig to Albert Belle?

Wow, we’ve just zoomed past using antiquated stats into unconscionably shitty comparisons.

Congrats.


Belle had a 7.2 WAR, 173 wRC+ and .456 wOBA, by the way.

If you’re able to draw such a shitty comparison with those stats, you’re only proving why your stats are shitty.
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Not sure why, but Belle was my favorite over all of our other power hitters including Manny and Thome. I loved Belle, lol
 
There is no reasoning with a troll.
 
Lee said:
Not sure why, but Belle was my favorite over all of our other power hitters including Manny and Thome. I loved Belle, lol
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Manny was my guy. Albert might have been if I were a tad older, but I was only 8 when he bolted, but I was 10 when Manny became an MVP caliber player.
 
Derek said:
Manny was my guy. Albert might have been if I were a tad older, but I was only 8 when he bolted, but I was 10 when Manny became an MVP caliber player.
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I am a bit older, sadly I began my man crush when Belle through that ball into the crowed and hit the guy straight in the chest when he taunted Belle by calling him Joey.

Probably not his best moment, but still, lol
 
AZ_ said:
I’m livid at the thought of such a proclamation.

Just thankful about how real you keep it.
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See, this is just such a passive aggressive post. You are one of the biggest trolls on here but you are too arrogant to realize it. You really should learn how to have some fun. Over it.
 
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My point with comparing Albert and Manny to modern stats...………..is winning and getting to the World Series. and stats. Stats are great, but winning is better. You can post all the stats, WAR and all that......…..give me the '27 Yankees and I'll whip you ass every day/game/series. Guess its just a miscommunication on stats.
 
@Coyote850

I guess I’ll say something since I think you are over blowing what they are say.

To me all the guys are saying, numbers like RBIs are cool, but don’t say how a person is doing overall. If you put a bad hitter in the 4 hole with 3 good hitters in front of him, he may still lead the team in RBIs just because of the opportunities to get in runs. I feel the crew on here is saying make sure you are looking at the whole picture when it comes to someone stats.

So a quick example (just making up stats)

Player A has 15 HRs and 45 RBIs but player B has 15 HRs and 62 RBIs. You would normally expect to pick player B, but player A is batting like .280/.380/.400, but player B is batting .220/.300/.400, who would you take then? Player A is likely a lead off man and has 70 runs while player B may only have 35 but is the 4 hole man.

Just make sure you look at the whole picture before judging a player. I mean at one point Allen at the start of the season had one hit but was one of the team leaders in RBIs because he was able to get people home via the sac fly, ground hit etc he capitalized on the opportunities to get RBIs.
 
sportscoach said:
@Coyote850

I guess I’ll say something since I think you are over blowing what they are say.

To me all the guys are saying, numbers like RBIs are cool, but don’t say how a person is doing overall. If you put a bad hitter in the 4 hole with 3 good hitters in front of him, he may still lead the team in RBIs just because of the opportunities to get in runs. I feel the crew on here is saying make sure you are looking at the whole picture when it comes to someone stats.

So a quick example (just making up stats)

Player A has 15 HRs and 45 RBIs but player B has 15 HRs and 62 RBIs. You would normally expect to pick player B, but player A is batting like .280/.380/.400, but player B is batting .220/.300/.400, who would you take then? Player A is likely a lead off man and has 70 runs while player B may only have 35 but is the 4 hole man.

Just make sure you look at the whole picture before judging a player. I mean at one point Allen at the start of the season had one hit but was one of the team leaders in RBIs because he was able to get people home via the sac fly, ground hit etc he capitalized on the opportunities to get RBIs.
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In that case over the season its situational. If those are the final season stats..........gimmie the most RBI....And runs scored. That in a nutshell is my point.............
 
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