Should PED Users, Pete Rose, and/or Shoeless Joe be in the Hall of Fame?

I was once told personally by an ex GM of 2 major league teams that he believe 70-80% of the people have been juicing. He was in baseball scouting/management since the early 90's and actually started his career with the Indians. I knew him pretty well because our daughters played on the same traveling soccer team. (I will take guesses who i am talking about if you want)

Long story short we talked about this, and the majority of players were taking something that wasnt legal, and the league knew, they just turned the other head. So for the ped guys, it was part of the era, baseball never tested because they knew. Besides, players like Ruth never had to play against black players like Satchel Paige or Josh Gibson, the history of baseball is full of competitive imbalance.

As for the shamed like shoeless Joe and Pete? Come on, hall of fame, not hall of morals, never let Pete be a part of baseball again because well fuck him, he bet on his own team, but to keep the all time hits leader out of the hall? Just complete hypocritical. Players like Ty Cobb are in,

To me its like baseball wants to rewrite history, MLB constantly has an image problem imo, they try and hide the warts and it just makes them show even worse..

I've always believed that close to 100% juiced, but that's just my opinion. (It's my opinion of athletes of Every sport)
If 70% or more juiced, advanced stats like WAR, etc. filter out most of the statistical aberrations anyway. Traditional counting stats have actually never translated well between eras, but they had been the chief source of my fascination for the sport; a fascination which has waned precipitously over the past two decades.

I guess I just believe that a vanishing few players have ever deserved true "Hall of Fame" recognition, but that standard simply does not serve the needs of history or the interests of the sport itself.

Out of the Rafters at the Q said:

Dude was elected in on his first ballot in 2018.

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Did not know. If he is in then Bonds, McGwire and Sosa are all in. Thome juiced.

Just look at the 1994 vs 1997 pictures here. And how does a guy start having his best seasons in his 30s?

Mr. Orange said:

Did not know. If he is in then Bonds, McGwire and Sosa are all in. Thome juiced.

Just look at the 1994 vs 1997 pictures here. And how does a guy start having his best seasons in his 30s?

Nurse the Hate: The Jim Thome Question

This is Jim Thome's rookie card in 1994. Above that is Jim Thome in 1997. Six hundred home runs is a magical number. Here’s who has hit 60...

nursethehate.blogspot.com

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I’m not going to say Thome didn’t juice, because most guys did and it’s difficult to say for sure.

That article is bullshit though. His physical development was normal, as was his power progression. His best offensive seasons came at 31, 30, and 25. Three of his Five All-Star games happened at 26-27-28. So, I don’t know why you’re acting like he had some mid-30’s surge.

If you want to say he was probably on something because everyone else was, that’s fair. No reason to pretend there’s anything that points to usage though.

Derek said:

I’m not going to say Thome didn’t juice, because most guys did and it’s difficult to say for sure.

That article is bullshit though. His physical development was normal, as was his power progression. His best offensive seasons came at 31, 30, and 25. Three of his Five All-Star games happened at 26-27-28. So, I don’t know why you’re acting like he had some mid-30’s surge.

If you want to say he was probably on something because everyone else was, that’s fair. No reason to pretend there’s anything that points to usage though.

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It’s mainly that 1997 Jim Thome looks like he ate 1994 Jim Thome. Look, maybe he is the one guy that bulked up like that naturally....but it’s suspect given the time period.

Mr. Orange said:

It’s mainly that 1997 Jim Thome looks like he ate 1994 Jim Thome. Look, maybe he is the one guy that bulked up like that naturally....but it’s suspect given the time period.

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He was a 23 y/o playing his first full season in ‘94. I don’t see an unusual bulk up. He got gradually bigger as most do as they approach their athletic prime.

His power numbers never made any significant jump and his brothers are also huge men. I recall hearing Jim called “the runt” of the family even in an anecdote years ago.

Mr. Orange said:

It’s mainly that 1997 Jim Thome looks like he ate 1994 Jim Thome. Look, maybe he is the one guy that bulked up like that naturally....but it’s suspect given the time period.

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Btw this isn’t your fault, but that card isn’t from 1994, it’s from 1991 when he was 20.

Mr. Orange said:

McGwire and Sosa I think belong in. Those two are in a class of their own. I mean you say their names like Lennon and McCartney. Never one without the other. They saved baseball.

Bonds and Clemens are assholes driven by ego. Fuck em.

Manny and ARod were just so talented. I put them in.

I think Pete Rose is a good lesson and shouldn’t be in. Same with Shoeless.

Sheffield? Nah. Palmero? Not after his act at
Congress.

Not on the list but Thome? He def juiced but he is a nice guy. Probably final ballot.

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I think Bonds definitely needs to be in. JMO

Lee said:

I was once told personally by an ex GM of 2 major league teams that he believe 70-80% of the people have been juicing. He was in baseball scouting/management since the early 90's and actually started his career with the Indians. I knew him pretty well because our daughters played on the same traveling soccer team. (I will take guesses who i am talking about if you want)

Long story short we talked about this, and the majority of players were taking something that wasnt legal, and the league knew, they just turned the other head. So for the ped guys, it was part of the era, baseball never tested because they knew. Besides, players like Ruth never had to play against black players like Satchel Paige or Josh Gibson, the history of baseball is full of competitive imbalance.

As for the shamed like shoeless Joe and Pete? Come on, hall of fame, not hall of morals, never let Pete be a part of baseball again because well fuck him, he bet on his own team, but to keep the all time hits leader out of the hall? Just complete hypocritical. Players like Ty Cobb are in,

To me its like baseball wants to rewrite history, MLB constantly has an image problem imo, they try and hide the warts and it just makes them show even worse..

Click to expand...

Guess: Ruben Amaro Jr.

I used to say these guys should be included, but in their own special category. But now I've changed my mind.

All the games these guys played were official games. They all have a box score. MLB could have suspended them back in the day, but they didn't. Let the veterans committee vote on them.
The HOF is for excellence in baseball, not excellence as a human being.

Derek said:

Also, while I voted to have Pete in the Hall, I've realized recently why the hammer was brought down on him so hard despite supposedly never having voted against the Reds.

Even betting on your own team creates a conflict of interest. We all know that Tito manages differently in October than in May, but if you have money on the game, maybe you ride that pitcher an extra-inning in a game in May.

And what about the games he didn't bet on? That gives the appearance that he may now manage differently, or play different players, or maybe he lacked confidence in that day's starter due to an undisclosed minor injury.

There were a lot of factors that went into play, and I now understand why he was dealt with so harshly. That said, put him in the Hall. Keeping him out of the Hall really just punishes the fans.

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In fact Rose did vary his bets based on who was pitching, and varied his relievers based on whether or not he had a bet down. The gamblers knew this.

From the moment I moved to Cincinnati in 1995 I heard constant whining about how much Cincinnati was hated by baseball and how everyone unfairly hated Pete Rose. I had to keep pointing out the following:

- Every baseball fan LOVED "Charlie Hustle" (outside of Ray Fosse's family, friends and Indians fans as well as some people on the West Side of Cincinnati - see below). Every dad in the country pointed to him as the guy he wanted his sons to play like. When Pete crashed and burned it was sad for all baseball fans, not just those in Cincinnati.

- Pete admitted in the consent decree that the Commissioner had a basis for banning him for life. The only violation that results in a ban like that is betting on your own team, but Pete denied that verbally and many fans in Cincinnati believed him for years (until he eventually admitted otherwise).

- The fans in Cincinnati did have a point that baseball agreed they would be satisfied with the consent decree and would not formally find that Pete gambled on his own team. Poor Bart Giamatti (who's early death might have been affected by this mess) violated the agreement when he gave his opinion Pete did bet on his own team. Although accurate, Bart should never have addressed that.

- Opinions on Pete varied in the West Side, where he grew up. A lot of people that knew him considered him to be a complete asshole. I found that amusing, but great pro athletes often are. Fans generally don't care (we loved having Albert Belle on our team even though he was a complete asshole).

- Nobody hates Cincinnati because nobody gives a shit about Cincinnati. It's a nice town but the most boring place I've ever lived. No ethnicity to speak of. The air is like the city - stagnant (to paraphrase Eddie Murphy in Trading Places -- if you wanted a breeze in Cincinnati you had to fart).

- Having said all that, MLB should never have allowed any other team to play the first game of the season. That was a much bigger beef than Pete Rose.

- Marge Schott. Her drinking hole was a five minute walk from my first house in Cincinnati by the way. No coincidence it closed after she passed away.

Mr. Orange said:

Did not know. If he is in then Bonds, McGwire and Sosa are all in. Thome juiced.

Just look at the 1994 vs 1997 pictures here. And how does a guy start having his best seasons in his 30s?

Nurse the Hate: The Jim Thome Question

This is Jim Thome's rookie card in 1994. Above that is Jim Thome in 1997. Six hundred home runs is a magical number. Here’s who has hit 60...

nursethehate.blogspot.com

Click to expand...

Might want to actually look at his career and not take some random person's opinion on the internet as facts.

'Best seasons from age 30 to 35'

His second best OPS was age 25. Thome, from age 24 to 36 was one of the most consistent power hitters in baseball. When I look at his career, I see a typical HOF player: great player that is productive into his mid 30's then trails off until retirement in his early 40's.

As for PED's? He's never been linked to them. That doesn't mean he never did them, it also doesn't mean he did them. All I know is during the steroid era, where there was a massive investigation into them and some of the biggest stars were named specifically, the only people that mention Thome and steroids are random people on the internet.

As for any of these players being in the HOF, none should. If you have been proven to of used PEDs, you do not qualify for the HOF. If you gambled on games that you were a player, coach, manager or anyone able to influence the outcome of the game, nope, don't qualify. Even if you are the all time hits leader.

I'm not for sure saying Thome used. And it doesn't really matter if he is in the HOF. But....given the era and his transformation, it would be naive not to be skeptical. Does he belong in? If he didn't use, then yes, but if he did use, he shouldn't be in. Unfortunately he may always be guilty by association.

Obscured By Clouds said:

As for any of these players being in the HOF, none should. If you have been proven to of used PEDs, you do not qualify for the HOF. If you gambled on games that you were a player, coach, manager or anyone able to influence the outcome of the game, nope, don't qualify. Even if you are the all time hits leader.

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It wasn’t against the rules though. Morally wrong, yes, it was wrong.
Criminally /Legally wrong??? No. He helped baseball get back to where it needed to be, then went on to coach and help.
He should be in.
So should Sosa and Bonds!