Should PED Users, Pete Rose, and/or Shoeless Joe be in the Hall of Fame?

[Derek]

I'm not for sure saying Thome used. And it doesn't really matter if he is in the HOF. But....given the era and his transformation, it would be naive not to be skeptical. Does he belong in? If he didn't use, then yes, but if he did use, he shouldn't be in. Unfortunately he may always be guilty by association.

Then should we not allow any HOF guys 1990-2005?

There’s as much evidence of Thome PED use as there is Tony Gwynn. Again, I’m not seeing the transformation. The two pictures were from 1991 and 1997. You would expect him to be larger at 26 than at 20.

 

[Obscured By Clouds]

I'm not for sure saying Thome used. And it doesn't really matter if he is in the HOF. But....given the era and his transformation, it would be naive not to be skeptical. Does he belong in? If he didn't use, then yes, but if he did use, he shouldn't be in. Unfortunately he may always be guilty by association.

Who are the one accusing him? Random people on the internet. His career arc is pretty typical of a HOF'er. Great player that is productive into his mid 30's. That is really what separates great players from HOF'ers: longevity.

Those pictures that person used are misleading, that rookie card is from 1991, not 1994. The entire article is either written from ignorance or with a purpose to distort facts and hope people do not take the time to look them up.

There is no magical season where all of a sudden his numbers jump to insane levels. Look at Barry Bonds career, age 36 to 40 his numbers blow up to insane levels. He goes from one of the best players to ever play the game to video game god mode turned on numbers.

 

[Obscured By Clouds]

It wasn’t against the rules though. Morally wrong, yes, it was wrong.
Criminally /Legally wrong??? No. He helped baseball get back to where it needed to be, then went on to coach and help.
He should be in.
So should Sosa and Bonds!

Um, yeah, it's against the rules. Rule 21(d) to be specific.

http://content.mlb.com/documents/8/2/2/296982822/Major_League_Rule_21.pdf

"(2) Any player, umpire, or Club or League official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has a duty to perform, shall be declared permanently ineligible. "

"shall be declared permanently ineligible" Bye Bye Pete Rose, permanently ineligible because you broke the rules. Being the all time hits leader does not make him the exception to the rule, it makes him an idiot.

 

[Mr. Orange]

Who are the one accusing him? Random people on the internet. His career arc is pretty typical of a HOF'er. Great player that is productive into his mid 30's. That is really what separates great players from HOF'ers: longevity.

Those pictures that person used are misleading, that rookie card is from 1991, not 1994. The entire article is either written from ignorance or with a purpose to distort facts and hope people do not take the time to look them up.

There is no magical season where all of a sudden his numbers jump to insane levels. Look at Barry Bonds career, age 36 to 40 his numbers blow up to insane levels. He goes from one of the best players to ever play the game to video game god mode turned on numbers.

Yeah true. But like I said, if we aren't at least suspect, then we are naive. At the end of the day, I guess it doesn't matter. He is in the Hall so I should not have brought him up. I didn't know he was in.

Barry Bonds was a HOF player, but he threw that all away in his last years since he was jealous of McGwire and Sosa who he knew he was better than, but they got all the attention. Even to this day, we look back at Mac and Sammy with love, but Bonds we loathe.

 

[Derek]

Who are the one accusing him? Random people on the internet. His career arc is pretty typical of a HOF'er. Great player that is productive into his mid 30's. That is really what separates great players from HOF'ers: longevity.

Those pictures that person used are misleading, that rookie card is from 1991, not 1994. The entire article is either written from ignorance or with a purpose to distort facts and hope people do not take the time to look them up.

There is no magical season where all of a sudden his numbers jump to insane levels. Look at Barry Bonds career, age 36 to 40 his numbers blow up to insane levels. He goes from one of the best players to ever play the game to video game god mode turned on numbers.

It seems like the article was written by somebody who had never followed Thome until his HoF induction.

Age 23: '94 - 20 HR in 321 AB, 6.23% of at-bats ended in HR
24: '95 - 25 HR in 452 AB, 5.53%
25: '96 - 38 HR in 404 AB, 7.52%
26: '97 - 40 HR in 496 AB, 8.06 %
27: '98 - 30 HR in 440 AB, 6.82%
28: '99 - 33 HR in 494 AB, 6.68%
29: '00 - 37 HR in 557 AB, 6.64%
30: '01 - 49 HR in 526 AB, 9.31%
31: '02 - 52 HR in 480 AB, 10.83%
32: '03 - 47 HR in 578 AB, 8.13%
33: '04 - 42 HR in 508 AB, 8.27%
35: '06 - 42 HR in 490 AB, 8.57% (first year as primary DH)
36: '07 - 35 HR in 432 AB, 8.10%
37: '08 - 35 HR in 503 AB, 6.76%
He became a part-time player after this.

As I said before, that baseball card was from when he was 19 or 20, so I would expect him to add a lot of mass between then and the prime of his career. His best seasons were '95-'98 and the '01-'02, so ages 24-31. Nothing out of the ordinary there.

Here's Thome in 1993, he turned 23 that August


Here he is in '96 right before he turned 26


Here is his baseball from 2000, so I assume it's a 1999 picture


Here he is in 2002


Looks like a pretty standard progression for a guy entering his prime and then his 30's




If you want to say Thome was probably on something because most guys were, I understand that cynical approach. You have been given every reason to think that way. However, there was no production spike or body transformation that would suggest PEDs. As I said before, the article is completely bogus.

 

[Obscured By Clouds]

Yeah true. But like I said, if we aren't at least suspect, then we are naive. At the end of the day, I guess it doesn't matter. He is in the Hall so I should not have brought him up. I didn't know he was in.

Barry Bonds was a HOF player, but he threw that all away in his last years since he was jealous of McGwire and Sosa who he knew he was better than, but they got all the attention. Even to this day, we look back at Mac and Sammy with love, but Bonds we loathe.

I personally do not look back at Sosa or McGwire with love at all, and I was a huge A's fan growing up, specifically loving the Bash Brothers. Those teams of the late 80's made me fall in love with baseball. Canseco was specifically my favorite player, and it turned out that dickhead was one of the biggest peddlers and influencers of PEDs to other players. Fuck them all. Each and every one of them.

You did nail it with Bonds, he threw it all away because he wasn't getting the attention he wanted, and that being 'one of the best' was not good enough, he had to be 'the best.'

 

[Mr. Orange]

I personally do not look back at Sosa or McGwire with love at all, and I was a huge A's fan growing up, specifically loving the Bash Brothers. Those teams of the late 80's made me fall in love with baseball. Canseco was specifically my favorite player, and it turned out that dickhead was one of the biggest peddlers and influencers of PEDs to other players. Fuck them all. Each and every one of them.

You did nail it with Bonds, he threw it all away because he wasn't getting the attention he wanted, and that being 'one of the best' was not good enough, he had to be 'the best.'

Well that summer of 1998 was magical. And yeah, I know I know, they were juiced, but everyone was. And at least Mac and Sammy weren't total assholes about it like Bonds or Lance Armstrong.

No matter what, chasing 61 was crazy pressure. And you have to give it up to those two. Five guys have been alone on top of the single season leaderboard since 1927, Ruth (60), Maris (61), McGwire (62-65; 67-70), Sosa (first ever to 66, for about 1 hour) and Bonds (71-73).

That's it. Those are the five. And 1998 was magic. It was pop culture. It was must watch.

 

[Derek]

I still remember watching Big Mac hit a low liner over the LF wall. Don't remember if it was 61 or 62.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

I still remember watching Big Mac hit a low liner over the LF wall. Don't remember if it was 61 or 62.

I still remember his shot off the Budweiser sign.

 

[Derek]

It was 62

Poor Steve Trachsel...

(Why the fuck do I remember his name)

 

[LL3]

I still remember his shot off the Budweiser sign.

I attended the game...because of my angle, I did not actually see it hit the sign until the replay, but it was a prodigious blast off the bat!

 

[LL3]

It was 62

Poor Steve Trachsel...

(Why the fuck do I remember his name)

Trachs was a decent pitcher and he played for many years...if you watch a lot of baseball the names just stick with you.

 

[Derek]

Trachs was a decent pitcher and he played for many years...if you watch a lot of baseball the names just stick with you.

Noticed Scott Servais behind the plate as well

 

[LL3]

I was lucky enough to make it to a number of games in last days of old Comiskey (89/90)...I say lucky because one could easily sit in the outfield and interact with an exuberant, exciting, smallish young player named Sammy Sosa. He did not have great command of English, and I (along with most around me) did not have much Spanish, but he was happy to try between batters and innings. He'd flash a great smile, a few phrases, and the occasional ball would be lobbed into the stands. I was a big fan of Sammy. He certainly evolved from that point in time, but when I think of him, it is always the early days.

 

[Lee]

Guess: Ruben Amaro Jr.

Nope, ;lol.....but both a real person and character on the Show Schooled.