Collin Sexton | The Young Bull

daytripper said:

I don't get it either. Sexton is playing like a stud but some fans want him gone because he doesn't match their preconceived notion of what a SG should be. Sexton is playing like a future stud and actually WANTS to be here. I repeat...he LOVES it here. Why on earth would the Cavs even consider dealing such a dynamic scorer and competitor who loves to play here. When it's all said and done the main object of the game is to outscore the opponent. Our last dynamic scorer, Kyrie, was demanding to be traded at the first opportunity even after winning a ring here. I don't see Collin doing that.

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I do not get the hate for collin either. Is he perfect, no, how many NBA players are ?
You cannot help but love his work ethic, seriously ?, shooting after games. Kind of interesting he is the only one that does it

He is a dynamic scorer and has improved several facets of his game. I have zero issues with him. He is still developing

bob

ryanf said:

weird... that guy...

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Yeah has no be personal. I don't like Kevin Love but that makes sense. Don't know how anyone can hate Collin unless Collin stole their girl or wife. I might be on to something.

Players 23 or younger to average 20ppg, while shooting >47% from field and > 38% from three.

Since 2006 (that is as far back as I felt like looking), there have been 7 times this has been done. Sexton has 2 of the seasons.

Some of you will point to average advance shooting metrics--those will go up when Collin starts shooting more threes EVEN if his 3 pt% drops a little--and it seems that he has been hunting more of them lately and it seems the more of them that he shoots the better he actually shoots them.

He is an elite scorer at age 22 in the NBA. You don't trade those guys and you don't make them 6th men.

fncavsfan said:

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/t...F=AGE*L*23:FG_PCT*G*47:FG3_PCT*GE*38:pTS*G*20

Players 23 or younger to average 20ppg, while shooting >47% from field and > 38% from three.

Since 2006 (that is as far back as I felt like looking), there have been 7 times this has been done. Sexton has 2 of the seasons.

Some of you will point to average advance shooting metrics--those will go up when Collin starts shooting more threes EVEN if his 3 pt% drops a little--and it seems that he has been hunting more of them lately and it seems the more of them that he shoots the better he actually shoots them.

He is an elite scorer at age 22 in the NBA. You don't trade those guys and you don't make them 6th men.

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Scoring/FG%/3PT%/FT%:
Age 23: 23.7/.462/.374/.832
Age 24: 25.5/.450/.380/.802
Age 25: 28.3/.527/.438/.866
Team's record:
22-60
22-43
19-22
And this is what worries me about Sexton.
Those are ELITE numbers on the surface, but Zach Lavine's elite numbers seemingly don't translate into W's.
I don't think Collin is a totally empty stat guy, I just think he misses so many winning plays because he doesn't see the floor or doesn't feel the defense or doesn't recognize the double or understand what to do when he does see it.. and some of that is experience, but we are rolling into his 4th year and it's not like he hasn't gotten the minutes to learn some of this stuff. He's better today than he was last year, but he's really missing the reads a guy who controls the ball as much as he does should.
I'm still more + on Sexton than I am a -, but the criticism he gets is often times fair. And the reason people peg him as a 6th man is because of the issues mentioned above.. if you are going to be a "blinders-on" scorer, often times your best role on a winning club is as a 6th man.

Is there a coach out there who wouldn’t want Sexton on the floor with the game on the line?

Not only can he score at the death, he already won a game dropping a dime to Stevens.

weepinwillow said:

Scoring/FG%/3PT%/FT%:
Age 23: 23.7/.462/.374/.832
Age 24: 25.5/.450/.380/.802
Age 25: 28.3/.527/.438/.866
Team's record:
22-60
22-43
19-22
And this is what worries me about Sexton.
Those are ELITE numbers on the surface, but Zach Lavine's elite numbers seemingly don't translate into W's.
I don't think Collin is a totally empty stat guy, I just think he misses so many winning plays because he doesn't see the floor or doesn't feel the defense or doesn't recognize the double or understand what to do when he does see it.. and some of that is experience, but we are rolling into his 4th year and it's not like he hasn't gotten the minutes to learn some of this stuff. He's better today than he was last year, but he's really missing the reads a guy who controls the ball as much as he does should.
I'm still more + on Sexton than I am a -, but the criticism he gets is often times fair. And the reason people peg him as a 6th man is because of the issues mentioned above.. if you are going to be a "blinders-on" scorer, often times your best role on a winning club is as a 6th man.

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Maybe you'd like to post the ream record as percentage as the totals don't match? Because if you do that, you basically say in the course of 3 years, sexton has learned to help his team win even with the coaching carousell and line up instability.

ryanf said:

Maybe you'd like to post the ream record as percentage as the totals don't match? Because if you do that, you basically say in the course of 3 years, sexton has learned to help his team win even with the coaching carousell and line up instability.

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Bulls are 3 years into Zach Lavine and he's been mentioned in rumors to be moved.
The point on Collin stands. He handles the ball a ton which makes him charged w/decisions with the ball. He needs to make reads quicker, anticipate the defense better and make those passes night in and night out. That alone levels up the Cavs into low end playoff team, imo.

weepinwillow said:

Bulls are 3 years into Zach Lavine and he's been mentioned in rumors to be moved.
The point on Collin stands. He handles the ball a ton which makes him charged w/decisions with the ball. He needs to make reads quicker, anticipate the defense better and make those passes night in and night out. That alone levels up the Cavs into low end playoff team, imo.

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What rumors, those from fans? No way they trade him. He is not their problem right now. In fact looking at their win % this year tells you how great he has been for them this year vs prior years. (also the stats posted about for Lavine doesnt show his yr 3 to yr 4--that jump was enormous--Imagine if Sexton makes that big a jump next year--he could be a 28+ ppg scorer on 50-40-80 splits possibly.

You seem to think basketball is played with 1 player at a time on the floor. Zach and Sexton "should be winning more games"---really, have you seen their teammates?

In the case of the Cavs--look at how awful our floor spacing currently is with 3 non shooters on the floor in Okoro, Nance and Allen. Imagine how much easier it would be for Garland and Sexton to drive if the paint wasn't congested with these guys defenders not caring if they catch the ball to shoot it. It is like our guards have to play with their hands tied behind their backs at this point. It makes what Sexton is accomplishing all the more impressive. (it is why Wade should be starting-for Okoro or Nance, he at least spaces the floor)

Look at the Kings as an example-Haliburton and Fox had great games last night--but sub Okoro in for Hield and see what happens to their spacing--Hield was the difference last night-his guy had to guard him out to 3 pt line.

Let's pretend we could bring Lebron in place of Sexton--Garland Okoro Lebron Nance and Allen---how long before Lebron was putting the coach under the bus due to not having enough space to work??

Also Sexton has been making some great passes lately-his teammates are not finishing them. He had at least 3 last night for point blank shots. Had he had Holmes and Hield to pass to how many assists would he have had?

I like Altman and think overall he has been going in the right direction-but he missed the last draft bad. Haliburton should have been the pick hands down. I don't even know a ton about college hoops and he is who I was hoping for. But swapping Haliburton in for Okoro makes us a way way better team-with much better floor spacing.

weepinwillow said:

Bulls are 3 years into Zach Lavine and he's been mentioned in rumors to be moved.
The point on Collin stands. He handles the ball a ton which makes him charged w/decisions with the ball. He needs to make reads quicker, anticipate the defense better and make those passes night in and night out. That alone levels up the Cavs into low end playoff team, imo.

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lol... not letting you escape this one. let me put that in winning percentage.

year 1: 22% winning percentage
year 2: 34% winning percentage
year 3: 46% winning percentage

see how this put seasons in perspective? at the rate the cavs is going, sexton has doubled his winning percentage from his rookie year, and that is without kevin love for most of season three. he has also upped his points, 2pt percentage and assists. there are nights where he looks like the best player on the floor, for both teams. just look at the raptors game, he looked better than both lowry and van vleet and continued to bail out the cavs during scoring droughts and almost wasted possessions.

i recognize your criticisms as points for improvement, yes, sexton needs to be better at all those things. but to accuse him of not playing winning basketball? the stats and eye test say otherwise.

ryanf said:

lol... not letting you escape this one. let me put that in winning percentage.

year 1: 22% winning percentage
year 2: 34% winning percentage
year 3: 46% winning percentage

see how this put seasons in perspective? at the rate the cavs is going, sexton has doubled his winning percentage from his rookie year, and that is without kevin love for most of season three. he has also upped his points, 2pt percentage and assists. there are nights where he looks like the best player on the floor, for both teams. just look at the raptors game, he looked better than both lowry and van vleet and continued to bail out the cavs during scoring droughts and almost wasted possessions.

i recognize your criticisms as points for improvement, yes, sexton needs to be better at all those things. but to accuse him of not playing winning basketball? the stats and eye test say otherwise.

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Those were the Bulls records he was listing

Cavs are...
year 1: 19-63 (.232)
year 2: 19-46 (.292)
year 3: 16-27 (.372)

Cavs were really coming on last year when the season got cancelled so I do think their win % would've improved over the last few weeks. With that said I don't think we can really judge any of our young guys completely since the team still doesn't have the proper complimentary pieces on the roster yet. I really like Allen, Nance, and Okoro but when you have all three on the floor at the same time it's a problem creating any offense.

Derek said:

Those were the Bulls records he was listing

Cavs are...
year 1: 19-63 (.232)
year 2: 19-46 (.292)
year 3: 16-27 (.372)

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My bad then. My bad.

Derek said:

Those were the Bulls records he was listing

Cavs are...
year 1: 19-63 (.232)
year 2: 19-46 (.292)
year 3: 16-27 (.372)

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That is also years 4,5 and 6 for Lavine on the Bulls record. But look at that team, issue is not Lavine-their record this year is showing just how good Lavine has been this year.

fncavsfan said:

That is also years 4,5 and 6 for Lavine on the Bulls record. But look at that team, issue is not Lavine-their record this year is showing just how good Lavine has been this year.

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A Stat line w/o the "W" stat to compliment that line will always have me looking sideways at it. My favorite is Shaq's stat line: 20 seasons and not a single season where his team finished below .500. He's like 19-0-1.
So, you think the Bulls are winning because of LaVine, but losing because of everyone else. It's possible, I think it's unlikely. My guess is Zach contributes his fair share in L's.
I know Sexton contributes his fair share in L's for the Cavs, regardless of his high PPG and solid shooting %'s.
The analytics guys need a tick checker for "winning basketball play" maybe it's a % or a straight number.. I don't know.. something quantifiable that guys want to see checked more than PPG/REB/ASST/FGP etc.. We can have Popovich leave the Spurs to head up the department.

weepinwillow said:

A Stat line w/o the "W" stat to compliment that line will always have me looking sideways at it. My favorite is Shaq's stat line: 20 seasons and not a single season where his team finished below .500. He's like 19-0-1.
So, you think the Bulls are winning because of LaVine, but losing because of everyone else. It's possible, I think it's unlikely. My guess is Zach contributes his fair share in L's.
I know Sexton contributes his fair share in L's for the Cavs, regardless of his high PPG and solid shooting %'s.
The analytics guys need a tick checker for "winning basketball play" maybe it's a % or a straight number.. I don't know.. something quantifiable that guys want to see checked more than PPG/REB/ASST/FGP etc.. We can have Popovich leave the Spurs to head up the department.

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LOL. Shaq played on some great flipping teams--and he is probably the best center of all time.

Next you will tell me Robert Horry is the goat because his teams won a lot.

You are clearly not paying attention to what has gone on with the Cavs this year. We have played the starting lineup we had last night 4 times this year. We had some games where we had ZERO point guards. Some games our coach chose not to play a PF. We have one 30 million vet milking an injury and another almost 30 mil player pout his way to not playing. And our floor spacing currently is awful.

What player in the league at age 22 could you replace Sexton with that leads this team to way more wins? Lebron at 22- maybe? Who else? Kyrie already showed us he couldn't win more without other good players around him at same age.

Heck Jordan didn't really start winning until he had better teammates.

And look Collin is not Lebron or Jordan. (I do think he will be better than Kyrie though--I hate watching the Kyrie dribbling show to end up in the same place--I prefer purpose with the dribble-get to your spot-why waste all that time showing off how you can fancy dribble)

A good comp for Sexton is Allen Iverson. He has a lot of Iverson in him (bulldog, works hard, plays tough, etc), but way better shooter, not as a good of a defender. Iverson was a smaller SG with Snow running the PG-that's when Philly had more success with Iverson.

Like I said, last nights game---switch Heild and Okoro and we win the game. Does that mean Sexton is a better player then? No same, player-better teammates. They do matter in the NBA when the difference nightly is maybe 3 to 5 shots going the opposite way.