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Game Thread | 2020-21 Season | Game $70 | Celtics @ Cavs | May 12, 2021

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Sebastian said:
Winning a game like this rather sucks.

Despite optimism about odds, or fatalism, one does prefer to have the best odds.

Past Lotto results are irrelevant. One puts oneself in the best position one can each year. A 65% chance of drafting Top 5 is far more desirable than a 37% chance.

"Draft better!" is a fallacy. If teams could identify every diamond in the rough, the Lotto would be pointless since Draft position wouldn't matter. And with that all the arguments about organizational stability etc. etc. If the Cavs had that, they wouldn't be in their current semi-dumpster fire situation, would they?

It does matter. If it didn't, the Cavs would be looking at a bright shiny future because every player is as good as Luka, or Zion.

==========

That said, I am not sure how much worse the Cavs could have played short of literally benching healthy players. The Celtics fucking stank up the joint. Good Lord.

I just hope we luck out this year, because I don't want to see these last three games as part of that "What If" thread in S34 as the Cavs enter the 6th year of their rebuild because they don't have any stars.
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-The opportunity to select Luka was not based on the record of the Cleveland Cavaliers

-The Cavs put themselves in the 2nd best odds to get Zion or Ja

-The Cavs put themselves in the second best odds to get Edwards, Melo, or Wiseman

-The Sexton draft was prior to knowing with 100% certainty that LeBron was leaving, so we are about to have our third draft of the rebuild.
 
MirORich said:
-The opportunity to select Luka was not based on the record of the Cleveland Cavaliers

-The Cavs put themselves in the 2nd best odds to get Zion or Ja

-The Cavs put themselves in the second best odds to get Edwards, Melo, or Wiseman

-The Sexton draft was prior to knowing with 100% certainty that LeBron was leaving, so we are about to have our third draft of the rebuild.
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If they don't draft a player that moves the needle significantly I feel like we will be right back again doing the same thing next year,,,it's just frustrating.
 
WorldFreeB said:
If they don't draft a player that moves the needle significantly I feel like we will be right back again doing the same thing next year,,,it's just frustrating.
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Even when you pick in the top2, how many rookies truly move the needle in terms of wins and losses in year one?

For the long term, yes, the Cavs are best if they come out of this draft with a future all star. For next year, if they show some decent improvement, it would be based off three main factors:
- health
- continued development of players already on the roster
- stabilization of the backup PG position

It’s very very rare, even for eventual all NBA players, for a rookie to come in and be the driving force in significant improvement in his rookie year.
 
MirORich said:
-The opportunity to select Luka was not based on the record of the Cleveland Cavaliers

-The Cavs put themselves in the 2nd best odds to get Zion or Ja

-The Cavs put themselves in the second best odds to get Edwards, Melo, or Wiseman

-The Sexton draft was prior to knowing with 100% certainty that LeBron was leaving, so we are about to have our third draft of the rebuild.
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That was not my point.

My point is if teams could identify talent easily, and if all Drafting positions were equal because a team simply "identifies talent," which is an argument that is frequently made, then the Cavs should not be looking at another sub-25 win season. Identifying talent is not easy and is not desirable compared to drafting sure things.

There is no transitive property of one pick is as good as another because X was drafted at the same position, or later.

And again, the outcome of the odds in previous years is wholly and completely irrelevant.

Arguing that having better odds is meaningless because of ________ season Lotto, is like arguing one should never play poker again because they lost a hand they should have statistically won.

My point about a 6th year of the rebuild does not reflect the current year. It was also a joke.
 
Sebastian said:
That was not my point.

My point is if teams could identify talent easily, and if all Drafting positions were equal because a team simply "identifies talent," which is an argument that is frequently made, then the Cavs should not be looking at another sub-25 win season. Identifying talent is not easy and is not desirable compared to drafting sure things.

There is no transitive property of one pick is as good as another because X was drafted at the same position, or later.

And again, the outcome of the odds in previous years is wholly and completely irrelevant.

Arguing that having better odds is meaningless because of ________ season Lotto, is like arguing one should never play poker again because they lost a hand they should have statistically won.

My point about a 6th year of the rebuild does not reflect the current year. It was also a joke.
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My preference was also a loss tonight and the continuation and completion of our season ending losing streak.

The reaction board wide is a little overstated in my opinion. The slight shift in odds is small and only represents a small increase in a push down to the 6-7th spot that was already very possible had we lost out.
 
Who was that #0 on the Cavs? Haven't seen him all year. Was this a sneak preview of next season?

Sexton with 28 points and 8 assists. Who says he doesn't see the floor?

The Celtics shot 39.6% from the field. They are so dependent on Tatum, Brown and Walker for scoring, but with Brown and Walker out they were in trouble.

Okoro had a line of 15/6/6. That's what I'm hoping he averages next season.

The Cavs were 2-for-15 on 3's not shot by Kevin Love.
 
Sebastian said:
That was not my point.

My point is if teams could identify talent easily, and if all Drafting positions were equal because a team simply "identifies talent," which is an argument that is frequently made, then the Cavs should not be looking at another sub-25 win season. Identifying talent is not easy and is not desirable compared to drafting sure things.

There is no transitive property of one pick is as good as another because X was drafted at the same position, or later.

And again, the outcome of the odds in previous years is wholly and completely irrelevant.

Arguing that having better odds is meaningless because of ________ season Lotto, is like arguing one should never play poker again because they lost a hand they should have statistically won.

My point about a 6th year of the rebuild does not reflect the current year. It was also a joke.
Click to expand...


It's not. But my point is and remains: If the Cavs are to become an organization that can consistently win, then they'll have to figure out how to do it.

Or else, outside of drafting a truly otherworldly talent like LeBron, they'll be only slightly relevant for bits and stretches, but never consistently good. Our market dictates that.

Minnesota is a great example. They've drafted high. A lot. And they have managed in the last 14 seasons exactly 1 playoff birth and they were promptly swept in the 1st round. Even with lots and lots of chances to acquire talent, they can't actually make it mean something. And because they're Minnesota, they'll never be able to make up for that in free agency.

Meanwhile Utah, a team located in literally the least desirable NBA City, does nothing but win decade after decade after decade and rarely do you ever see them anywhere near the top 5.

So, yea, it makes it easier to find talent if you're at the top of the draft but that's not really what I want from this team longterm. Just hoping to luck into a superstar because they sucked bad enough for long enough.
 
MirORich said:
My preference was also a loss tonight and the continuation and completion of our season ending losing streak.

The reaction board wide is a little overstated in my opinion. The slight shift in odds is small and only represents a small increase in a push down to the 6-7th spot that was already very possible had we lost out.
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I also think under normal circumstances the Cavs lose.

Boston was very bad tonight...

However, it is entirely possible that ORL, MIN will another game.

For the same reasons the Cavs did.

They are still in the running for 3rd worst. And still have a good shot at 4th.

But in the end, if it is their destiny to stink, they'll get fucked no matter the odds.
 
Rich said:
It's not. But my point is and remains: If the Cavs are to become an organization that can consistently win, then they'll have to figure out how to do it.

Or else, outside of drafting a truly otherworldly talent like LeBron, they'll be only slightly relevant for bits and stretches, but never consistently good. Our market dictates that.

Minnesota is a great example. They've drafted high. A lot. And they have managed in the last 14 seasons exactly 1 playoff birth and they were promptly swept in the 1st round. Even with lots and lots of chances to acquire talent, they can't actually make it mean something. And because they're Minnesota, they'll never be able to make up for that in free agency.

Meanwhile Utah, a team located in literally the least desirable NBA City, does nothing but win decade after decade after decade and rarely do you ever see them anywhere near the top 5.

So, yea, it makes it easier to find talent if you're at the top of the draft but that's not really what I want from this team longterm. Just hoping to luck into a superstar because they sucked bad enough for long enough.
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You and I both know they Cavs are not Utah or Denver franchises.

And it ain't happening anytime soon.

So realistically, it is absolutely desirable to have the higher pick. Because they do need that superstar.

And for this franchise, as it is currently built, to turn into a contender, it probably needs a superstar.

That said, it applies to this year. The season is lost.

Long-term? No. they should try to win. Tanking is not a long term strategy. Provided they get a good piece they should make the playoffs in 2022.
 
Sebastian said:
You and I both know they Cavs are not Utah or Denver franchises.

And it ain't happening anytime soon.
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While what you say above is probable, we actually don’t know.
They‘re three year past being in the LeBron orbit. Only three. Last time around he came back after three, which is obviously not happening this time around.

But the point is, there is no long term track record of this franchise run by Gilbert outside of the LeBron era.

So while for general statistical purposes, they will not be a Denver or Utah, I would argue against the notion that it’s a farce to suggest they could be.

So much of these arguments thought are simply better served after the lottery though, when we actually know when we’re drafting. As of today, we literally could technically pick anywhere between 1-10
 
MirORich said:
While what you say above is probable, we actually don’t know.
They‘re three year past being in the LeBron orbit. Only three. Last time around he came back after three, which is obviously not happening this time around.

But the point is, there is no long term track record of this franchise run by Gilbert outside of the LeBron era.

So while for general statistical purposes, they will not be a Denver or Utah, I would argue against the notion that it’s a farce to suggest they could be.

So much of these arguments thought are simply better served after the lottery though, when we actually know when we’re drafting. As of today, we literally could technically pick anywhere between 1-10
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True!

Good points.

Let's hope for some luck.

Everyone, start doing some good deeds on a daily basis.
 
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