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2021 Series #20 | Mariners @ Indians | June 11-13, 2021

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White Sox beginning to walk away from the Indians a bit. Need to start reeling in a few games to hang close enough to make a real run at this thing. Not sure they have the pitching to do it. This weekend was pretty much a disaster.

TMac right back to looking like a BOR arm at best. Yes it is the same statement I made after watching him pitch early in the year that had posters here (@BimboColesHair in particular) all but hurt about it. But now Mr. Reliable Biebs is looking much less invincible. Civale is on a real good roll and it is great to see. Love watching that guy pitch. But after Civale/Biebs in the rotation it is kind of a graveyard for the unknown soldier.
 
jup said:
White Sox beginning to walk away from the Indians a bit. Need to start reeling in a few games to hang close enough to make a real run at this thing. Not sure they have the pitching to do it. This weekend was pretty much a disaster.

TMac right back to looking like a BOR arm at best. Yes it is the same statement I made after watching him pitch early in the year that had posters here (@BimboColesHair in particular) all but hurt about it. But now Mr. Reliable Biebs is looking much less invincible. Civale is on a real good roll and it is great to see. Love watching that guy pitch. But after Civale/Biebs in the rotation it is kind of a graveyard for the unknown soldier.
Click to expand...

TMac is a front of rotation potential, but right now he's a depth piece since he cannot put it all together. He isn't ready for the pros right now, so he's still a work in progress... We have to wait to see if he can out everything together before we say if he's front or back end of the rotation...

Bimbo is an insider, and his info is very often correct and trustworthy... Now where TMac ends up in the rotation is pure speculation, but I believe his upside is front of the rotation, but he's got a ton to work on...
 
sportscoach said:
TMac is a front of rotation potential, but right now he's a depth piece since he cannot put it all together. He isn't ready for the pros right now, so he's still a work in progress... We have to wait to see if he can out everything together before we say if he's front or back end of the rotation...

Bimbo is an insider, and his info is very often correct and trustworthy... Now where TMac ends up in the rotation is pure speculation, but I believe his upside is front of the rotation, but he's got a ton to work on...
Click to expand...
No doubt @sportscoach. Let me restate, he is at best a BOR presently. No one can see into the future, and I am talking present day because that is where we are right now.

And I got it Bimbo is an insider and that is great. I also think the information he posts is great. He just didn't take kindly to me saying I watched TMac pitch (before the shine wore off) when he was suppose to be the next incarnate of Biebs and Klubs and etc. etc. and didn't see a top of the rotation arm. And I still stick by it.

He may be an insider, and he may know what they want him to work on, but I know pitching very well. It is my area of expertise. And when someone wants to tread heavy on my toes, I am going to speak up. And at this point, what Bimbo said he needed to do, either is not going to get it done, or the execution has been poor on his part, because we sit where we sit, and even you are saying he doesn't belong at the MLB level presently.
 
jup said:
No doubt @sportscoach. Let me restate, he is at best a BOR presently. No one can see into the future, and I am talking present day because that is where we are right now.

And I got it Bimbo is an insider and that is great. I also think the information he posts is great. He just didn't take kindly to me saying I watched TMac pitch (before the shine wore off) when he was suppose to be the next incarnate of Biebs and Klubs and etc. etc. and didn't see a top of the rotation arm. And I still stick by it.

He may be an insider, and he may know what they want him to work on, but I know pitching very well. It is my area of expertise. And when someone wants to tread heavy on my toes, I am going to speak up. And at this point, what Bimbo said he needed to do, either is not going to get it done, or the execution has been poor on his part, because we sit where we sit, and even you are saying he doesn't belong at the MLB level presently.
Click to expand...

It's hard to change so much mechanically at the pro level and that's why one start he's amazing and another he is a little league pitcher... He needs time in the minors to get himself together...Bieber didn't have to do a lot when it came to the mechanical side of pitching. Civale made some changes as well, so I was expecting a bit of a decrease, but he somehow beat the odds again and proven he is way better than anyone projected him to be...

Right now, he is a back of the rotation/depth piece, but when he is on, he really has shown the top of the rotation stuff when everything is clicking. We both hope Bimbo is right and he becomes that front of rotation guy, but it's too early for him to be that. Also don't forget he is still really young...
 
sportscoach said:
It's hard to change so much mechanically at the pro level and that's why one start he's amazing and another he is a little league pitcher... He needs time in the minors to get himself together...Bieber didn't have to do a lot when it came to the mechanical side of pitching. Civale made some changes as well, so I was expecting a bit of a decrease, but he somehow beat the odds again and proven he is way better than anyone projected him to be...

Right now, he is a back of the rotation/depth piece, but when he is on, he really has shown the top of the rotation stuff when everything is clicking. We both hope Bimbo is right and he becomes that front of rotation guy, but it's too early for him to be that. Also don't forget he is still really young...
Click to expand...
Yep - and I am very old, for what that is worth.

You want to give a pass based on his age and potential. All good. I hope he blossoms also. Tough job to make it and then hold it down - MLB starting pitcher - more power to those that can. But outside of potential, for here and now, you have Biebs/Civale and a lot of unknown soldiers. And potential doesn't do you a whole lot of good when that next turn in the rotation comes around.
 
Part of the problem with the rotation is Berto being out. For some reason our starters are not adjusting in game to how they are being attacked by the hitters.

***********

Bieber FIP presently stands at 3.09 with an xFIP of 2.82, in spite of a BABIP of .323.

Out of 32 qualified pitchers he ranks 6th in FIP, 3rd in xFIP, but 29th in BABIP.

Every pitcher should be 'underperforming' like Biebs.

We heard it every year about Kluber and Carrasco when they went thru a rough patch. 'What's wrong with this guy?' And nearly every year, the answer was 'Nothing.'

*********

TMacs problems are partly trying to change mechanics on the job, and partly mental. Doesn't mean that he's a head case, just that he is young and inexperienced...both of which can lead to being intimidated by the situation.

************

Bauer 'doesn't touch the stuff', but as talk of enforcement goes up, his effectiveness has gone down.

Over his last four starts, he is 1-3 with an ERA of 4.32. In that span his K/9 is 8.28 and his BB/9 is 3.96.

Probably just a coincidence....

********

The last two games were ugly, but I wouldn't call the weekend a disaster. Just the opposite. I will take winning two out of three against anybody anytime.

In spite of all the recent hand wringing, we have taken six out of ten, and that includes four games vs Chicago and StL. I will take .600 all season every season.

*******

Every day gets us closer to Plesac, Franmil, and Berto.
 
jup said:
No doubt Bauer has the highest spin rates there are. No doubt he decided to use the best stuff if he was going to use.

But to say he used in Cleveland is JUST BULLSHIT to quote you @CDAV45. Just go look at his spin rates and it is obvious. They jumped in the first inning of a TX game that he used the stuff on purpose and told the press to prove his point. Spin rates went right back down and stayed there until Sept of '19, long after he was traded.

Inside the clubhouse Bauer would always be teasing Clev and Biebs about it. But believe what you may CDAV, no sweat off my back. However, I posted shit (not BS) about Clev and his spin rates way back in '17 on IBI. Maybe you never saw it on the "spin stuff" thread, but it was obvious since he first came up that he used sticky stuff. And he is just lucky he is injured right now because he doesn't have to deal with it.
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There shouldn't be any sweat off your back. It's just opinion on my part and like I said, I appreciate most of what you post. I've learned a lot from you actually, but all this stuff really isn't that important to me to argue about. I just hope they can clean whatever needs cleaning.
 
jup said:
White Sox beginning to walk away from the Indians a bit. Need to start reeling in a few games to hang close enough to make a real run at this thing. Not sure they have the pitching to do it. This weekend was pretty much a disaster.

TMac right back to looking like a BOR arm at best. Yes it is the same statement I made after watching him pitch early in the year that had posters here (@BimboColesHair in particular) all but hurt about it. But now Mr. Reliable Biebs is looking much less invincible. Civale is on a real good roll and it is great to see. Love watching that guy pitch. But after Civale/Biebs in the rotation it is kind of a graveyard for the unknown soldier.
Click to expand...
On this we agree. I have serious doubts if there is enough quality SP to even make a run at it TBH.

I also agree that TMac looks like a BOR arm, but I don't think I ever thought he was a TOR SP to begin with. I view his ceiling as a #3, but he could be a damn good #4 or #5 if he gets his shit together. I have little confidence in his ability to log innings and stay healthy so I'd trade him if his value ever peaks.
 
CATS44 said:
Part of the problem with the rotation is Berto being out. For some reason our starters are not adjusting in game to how they are being attacked by the hitters.

***********

Bieber FIP presently stands at 3.09 with an xFIP of 2.82, in spite of a BABIP of .323.

Out of 32 qualified pitchers he ranks 6th in FIP, 3rd in xFIP, but 29th in BABIP.

Every pitcher should be 'underperforming' like Biebs.

We heard it every year about Kluber and Carrasco when they went thru a rough patch. 'What's wrong with this guy?' And nearly every year, the answer was 'Nothing.'

*********

TMacs problems are partly trying to change mechanics on the job, and partly mental. Doesn't mean that he's a head case, just that he is young and inexperienced...both of which can lead to being intimidated by the situation.

************

Bauer 'doesn't touch the stuff', but as talk of enforcement goes up, his effectiveness has gone down.

Over his last four starts, he is 1-3 with an ERA of 4.32. In that span his K/9 is 8.28 and his BB/9 is 3.96.

Probably just a coincidence....

********

The last two games were ugly, but I wouldn't call the weekend a disaster. Just the opposite. I will take winning two out of three against anybody anytime.

In spite of all the recent hand wringing, we have taken six out of ten, and that includes four games vs Chicago and StL. I will take .600 all season every season.

*******

Every day gets us closer to Plesac, Franmil, and Berto.
Click to expand...
Good points CATS and I'm interested if what you say about Perez returning will be so.

As frustrating as the loss was yesterday, I'll take winning a series every time.

Another thing that has been discussed recently that I find interesting is that our beloved Indians have played/faired better against better competition. We'll see if that continues.

Ultimately, I don't have high expectations for this season, but I'm enjoying watching them compete........and competing is exactly what they're doing even if it seems a bit awkward. I said a few days ago that CA and MC could go either direction with this club. They could choose to add to the current roster or they could use this season as a research and development year. They might choose to do both in a sense so we'll just have to see what we see...won't we.
 
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CATS44 said:
Part of the problem with the rotation is Berto being out. For some reason our starters are not adjusting in game to how they are being attacked by the hitters.

***********

Bieber FIP presently stands at 3.09 with an xFIP of 2.82, in spite of a BABIP of .323.

Out of 32 qualified pitchers he ranks 6th in FIP, 3rd in xFIP, but 29th in BABIP.

Every pitcher should be 'underperforming' like Biebs.

We heard it every year about Kluber and Carrasco when they went thru a rough patch. 'What's wrong with this guy?' And nearly every year, the answer was 'Nothing.'

*********

TMacs problems are partly trying to change mechanics on the job, and partly mental. Doesn't mean that he's a head case, just that he is young and inexperienced...both of which can lead to being intimidated by the situation.

************

Bauer 'doesn't touch the stuff', but as talk of enforcement goes up, his effectiveness has gone down.

Over his last four starts, he is 1-3 with an ERA of 4.32. In that span his K/9 is 8.28 and his BB/9 is 3.96.

Probably just a coincidence....

********

The last two games were ugly, but I wouldn't call the weekend a disaster. Just the opposite. I will take winning two out of three against anybody anytime.

In spite of all the recent hand wringing, we have taken six out of ten, and that includes four games vs Chicago and StL. I will take .600 all season every season.

*******

Every day gets us closer to Plesac, Franmil, and Berto.
Click to expand...
Don't miss quote me @CATS44, I never said Bauer didn't touch the stuff, I said Bauer never touched the stuff until after he left Cleveland, there is a HUGE difference between the two and you trying to imply I said something different is a purposeful distortion.

Of course Bauer has started to use sticky stuff. I can tell you exactly when he did - Sept in Cincy. His spin rates tell you everything you need to know. But that is after he left Cleveland and that is exactly what I posted
 
TxBuckeye said:
But has his launch angle increased because he changed his swing or because of how he is being pitched? And if it is because he changed his swing was this organizationally approved or did Cesar do it on his own? (AND YES I AM BEING A SMARTASS)
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It's hard to believe that at age 31 and having exceeded his career averages last year in BA, OBP, slugging %, and OPS he decided to change his swing. It's not like they told him they were moving him to the #3 spot in the order and want him to hit more home runs. He's leading off. His job is to get on base and open up a hole on the right side for Amed, who is having great success shooting balls into right field. Cesar's OBP is .295 which is extremely low for a leadoff hitter who comes to bat more than any player on the team.

So I really doubt he changed his swing. But I can't explain why his fly ball rate has more than doubled while his batting average has dropped off the cliff. I noticed yesterday he's swinging at a lot of high fastballs. Gilbert was killing him with the high heat; he struck Cesar out three times. Maybe he should lay off the high heat and focus on driving pitches down in the zone.
 
jup said:
White Sox beginning to walk away from the Indians a bit. Need to start reeling in a few games to hang close enough to make a real run at this thing. Not sure they have the pitching to do it. This weekend was pretty much a disaster.

TMac right back to looking like a BOR arm at best. Yes it is the same statement I made after watching him pitch early in the year that had posters here (@BimboColesHair in particular) all but hurt about it. But now Mr. Reliable Biebs is looking much less invincible. Civale is on a real good roll and it is great to see. Love watching that guy pitch. But after Civale/Biebs in the rotation it is kind of a graveyard for the unknown soldier.
Click to expand...

Keep my name out ya mouth. :chuckle:
 
sportscoach said:
It's hard to change so much mechanically at the pro level and that's why one start he's amazing and another he is a little league pitcher... He needs time in the minors to get himself together... when he is on, he really has shown the top of the rotation stuff when everything is clicking. We both hope Bimbo is right and he becomes that front of rotation guy, but it's too early for him to be that. Also don't forget he is still really young...
Click to expand...
Yeah, McKenzie's line is 42.1 innings, 28 hits, 59 K's, and a .188 BAA.

If not for all the walks those are All-Star numbers. His BAA is lower than Bieber, Plesac, Civale, Quantrill, Mejia, and even Clase. He set a franchise record with eight consecutive strikeouts and that was against the second highest scoring team in the A.L.

This kid has out of this world potential. He's pitched a total of 5.1 innings at AAA and that was last week. He skipped right over AAA and he's also been injured a lot. He's pitched less than 350 innings of minor league ball in his entire life.

When it all comes together McKenzie will be awesome. But all the developmental time lost due to injury and the pandemic has taken its toll. He still has a ways to go before he's a finished product. Unfortunately, the Indians had to bring him up way too early after having to trade Carrasco and Bauer for financial reasons and with Plesac's injury. It looks like they recognized that because they just sent him down again.

Hopefully we'll see him in the second half but it may take longer.
 
Wham with the Right Hand said:
It's hard to believe that at age 31 and having exceeded his career averages last year in BA, OBP, slugging %, and OPS he decided to change his swing. It's not like they told him they were moving him to the #3 spot in the order and want him to hit more home runs. He's leading off. His job is to get on base and open up a hole on the right side for Amed, who is having great success shooting balls into right field. Cesar's OBP is .295 which is extremely low for a leadoff hitter who comes to bat more than any player on the team.

So I really doubt he changed his swing. But I can't explain why his fly ball rate has more than doubled while his batting average has dropped off the cliff. I noticed yesterday he's swinging at a lot of high fastballs. Gilbert was killing him with the high heat; he struck Cesar out three times. Maybe he should lay off the high heat and focus on driving pitches down in the zone.
Click to expand...
You realize I wasn't really seriously asking the question right?
 
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