Game Thread | 2021-2022 Season | Game #16 | Cavs @ Nets | Nov. 17, 2021

stickboltman said:

Yeah, him being a secondary ball handler on the court capable of running some PnR and slashing would really help the team. He has that in him, but defaults away from it. At this point I don't think he would execute that if he forced it.

It's a damn shame he's regressed so much in that area. He's playing stiff and will have to pound it to make himself loose. Doing that with the main squad will probably hurt his confidence with the misses/adjustment pains (edit: and hurt the overall team performance). The three point shooting, I'm not going to worry too much about with the change in form.

Good idea to get some assertiveness out of him with the GLeague route.

I thought he began the season playing okay in his bench role, making some cuts here and some cuts there, but he is capable of more. Still, that's an area he could find some immediate success when the team starts filling in from injury.

With the current state of the roster, I think he ultimately continues playing a good chunk of minutes for the foreseeable future.

For other options in the immediate timeline, I wouldn't mind seeing Nembhard get some run, what do you think?

Click to expand...

I am 100% confident we could swap Okoro with Justin James from the Charge and we'd get more production from James tomorrow while the Charge would sorely miss the second playmaker that James was for them today after Guy.

Okoro needs to be forced to play assertively again and until he does, we're wasting a golden opportunity to get him ready for when the team is healthy again in a month.

InBoobieWeTrust said:

They were within like 6 or 7 with the ball with over half the 4th quarter left. Game was legit winnable.

Click to expand...

See above. Rchfld does it better than me.

In trying to win every game, even games against teams like tonight missing 4 starters, we're not helping develop our number 5 pick from last year.

At no point were the Nets threatened by us. They never thought they were gonna lose this game. Ever.

BimboColesHair said:

And don’t come at me with “Ed Davis, Tacko Fall, Denzel Valentine” as if injury replacements are some “got ya” and they’d be seeing any burn outside of garbage time under normal circumstances.

The Cavs are not operating under normal circumstances at the moment. But they’re still building good habits even under those circumstances.

Talk about looking towards the future, this young core learning how to win seems like it would be real fucking important to their future success.

Click to expand...

The young core isn't playing Bimbo.

They're on the sidelines injured.

I'm not trying to be a smart ass, but are you telling me Allen and Mobley and Sexton are gonna develop some bad habits if the team took tonight to try and get some confidence for Okoro and Windler, while they're on the bench?

I very much respect the idea that learning to win is a skill that also has to be developed but....the dudes who make up the majority of the future of this team, currently, weren't suited up tonight. Toss in Markennen into that equation too.


That's why I thought tonight, particularly, was a unique moment.

Once Allen and Mark come back? Yea, you don't bench those guys just to help out Okoro. THAT does teach some bad lessons and might piss some people off.

But Rubio? Rubio is a pro's pro. He'd be ok with a night off.

I don't get the point of experimenting with Okoro as some kind primary ballhandler for the sake of "development." How can anyone watch him and really think this is a guy who will ever be able to break defenses down off the dribble and create shots for himself or others? If you saw a 2nd rounder doing the exact same things Okoro is, no one would be asking for that, and at this point his 5th overall pick status is considerably less relevant than how he's actually looked on an NBA court the past year plus, so the latter is what we should be taking into account when setting expectations.

If we're being realistic, his pathway to being a productive NBA player is being able to hit the three at a decent rate and then using his strength and athleticism to attack closeouts hard while being a physical defender at the other end. This desire to get him into more of an on-ball role in order to help him progress into a ball-handling 2 doesn't make sense to me and is wildly optimistic. We have three guys who have All-Star potential in their careers in Mobley, Garland, and Allen. Hell, you can even throw Sexton in there if you want. I may not be the biggest fan of him but he has the natural scoring talent to warrant a mention there. It'd be much more beneficial to try to turn Okoro into a guy who can actually be a supplemental role player by letting him focus and get better at the simple things in a PJ Tucker-like role. Yeah, it's not what you'd prefer from a guy drafted so high, but it is what is is.

All4One1ForAll said:

I don't get the point of experimenting with Okoro as some kind primary ballhandler for the sake of "development." How can anyone watch him and really think this is a guy who will ever be able to break defenses down off the dribble and create shots for himself or others? If you saw a 2nd rounder doing the exact same things Okoro is, no one would be asking for that, and at this point his 5th overall pick status is considerably less relevant than how he's actually looked on an NBA court the past year plus, so the latter is what we should be taking into account when setting expectations.

If we're being realistic, his pathway to being a productive NBA player is being able to hit the three at a decent rate and then using his strength and athleticism to attack closeouts hard while being a physical defender at the other end. This desire to get him into more of an on-ball role in order to help him progress into a ball-handling 2 doesn't make sense to me and is wildly optimistic. We have three guys who have All-Star potential in their careers in Mobley, Garland, and Allen. Hell, you can even throw Sexton in there if you want. I may not be the biggest fan of him but he has the natural scoring talent to warrant a mention there. It'd be much more beneficial to try to turn Okoro into a guy who can actually be a supplemental role player by letting him focus and get better at the simple things in a PJ Tucker-like role. Yeah, it's not what you'd prefer from a guy drafted so high, but it is what is is.

Click to expand...

Because those were his best moments last year. Never did he look capable as a 3 and D player. But when Sexton or Garland were out to end the year, he looked way, way more comfortable initiating the pick and roll and quickly getting down hill.

Those were the times where you felt like you might have something with him.

Rich said:

See above. Rchfld does it better than me.

In trying to win every game, even games against teams like tonight missing 4 starters, we're not helping develop our number 5 pick from last year.

At no point were the Nets threatened by us. They never thought they were gonna lose this game. Ever.

Click to expand...

Doesn’t matter if they weren’t threatened. We absolutely could have gotten hot for 6 mins and won that game.

RchfldCavRaised said:

I am 100% confident we could swap Okoro with Justin James from the Charge and we'd get more production from James tomorrow while the Charge would sorely miss the second playmaker that James was for them today after Guy.

Okoro needs to be forced to play assertively again and until he does, we're wasting a golden opportunity to get him ready for when the team is healthy again in a month.

Click to expand...

This. Basically exactly my thoughts summarized better.

Right now is our best chance to get Okoro confident in what he does best. Once the team is healthy, that moment is gone.


So then the disagreement here is this: Is keeping this specific game competitive more important than trying to help Okoro find what he managed to find last year? I say the answer is a clear no. No one will remember in a month that this was a 10 point loss and not a 25 point loss. But if Isaac Okoro had had himself a good offensive game, getting to the line, attacking the rim? Would potentially mean far more heading into the rest of the season.

InBoobieWeTrust said:

Doesn’t matter if they weren’t threatened. We absolutely could have gotten hot for 6 mins and won that game.

Click to expand...

Ok.

I find whatever those odds were less important that trying to help Okoro get the mindset he had to end the season last season.

We're just going to disagree on this one. Cavs, even down 7, had very little chance at winning that game.

Rich said:

The young core isn't playing Bimbo.

They're on the sidelines injured.

I'm not trying to be a smart ass, but are you telling me Allen and Mobley and Sexton are gonna develop some bad habits if the team took tonight to try and get some confidence for Okoro and Windler, while they're on the bench?

Click to expand...

The group as a whole, yes.

I’m not good with sacrificing anything of what has made this group successful to this point beyond any of our expectations just because 4 starters are out. That’s not fair to the guys who are left to play.

What a nice message to tell your young group still learning how to play winning basketball after so much losing since they’ve been pros. “We know we’re fucked, so go out and dick around and lose this game but be sure to develop”. Garland, Okoro, Windler, Wade, Cedi…solid message to send that group right there.

After the experiences of the last 3 years and letting young guys sink or swim and lose game after game after game with no fight, no winning basketball being played, bad habits forming left and right I am not good even taking one step back towards that mindset. Losing breeds more losing, a losing mentality breeds more losing and what you are suggesting they should have done tonight is just that.

It’s year 4 of the rebuild. This group needs to start learning how to win. You can develop Okoro in a system still designed to win. Garland is developing in a system designed to win. Mobley is, Sexton is, Allen is, Cedi is. It’s possible to “look at the game in front of you” and still develop guys.

There is more than one way to develop a team and develop players. The Cavs are taking a step in the right direction and involving winning in their development this year. This kind of stuff does pay off in the long run.

Rich said:

Echo this. Cedi has been great this season.

But he's very Kevin Love-like on defense in that he's mastered the art of giving fake effort. He's a bad defensive player.

Click to expand...

What exactly is fake effort? Please enlighten me. Either you give effort or not.

InBoobieWeTrust said:

Doesn’t matter if they weren’t threatened. We absolutely could have gotten hot for 6 mins and won that game.

Click to expand...

I disagree boobs.

At anytime to stop the bleeding, Brooklyn could and did feed Aldridge at the free throw line extended and we could do nothing about it.

He was their leading scorers by design man. They actually put the ball in James Johnson's hands late when Harden didn't have it to see if he could be counted on as a bench initiator.

Not KD, not Mills, not Blake... James Johnson.

They were setting their chess board up, preparing for a playoff run and we were playing checkers trying to win an unwinnable game when we could have been doing the same which would have included force feeding Okoro and making him assert himself.

But on to the Warriors tomorrow night.

I bet one of Otto Porter, Kuminga, Poole, Lee or Bjelica is schematically featured in the clutch to prepare for a playoff contribution

BimboColesHair said:

The group as a whole, yes.

I’m not good with sacrificing anything of what has made this group successful to this point beyond any of our expectations just because 4 starters are out. That’s not fair to the guys who are left to play.

What a nice message to tell your young group still learning how to play winning basketball after so much losing since they’ve been pros. “We know we’re fucked, so go out and dick around and lose this game but be sure to develop”. Garland, Okoro, Windler, Wade, Cedi…solid message to send that group right there.

After the experiences of the last 3 years and letting young guys sink or swim and lose game after game after game with no fight, no winning basketball being played, bad habits forming left and right I am not good even taking one step back towards that mindset. Losing breeds more losing, a losing mentality breeds more losing and what you are suggesting they should have done tonight is just that.

It’s year 4 of the rebuild. This group needs to start learning how to win. You can develop Okoro in a system still designed to win. Garland is developing in a system designed to win. Mobley is, Sexton is, Allen is, Cedi is. It’s possible to “look at the game in front of you” and still develop guys.

There is more than one way to develop a team and develop players. The Cavs are taking a step in the right direction and involving winning in their development this year. This kind of stuff does pay off in the long run.

Click to expand...

Eh, this isn't what I'm arguing at all and you know that.

No one thinks just tossing the ball out there and saying "hey, go do whatever" is a good idea.

The goal, though, would be to put Okoro in the same situations he was in last year to end the year where he started to find success.

That's the point.

RchfldCavRaised said:

I disagree boobs.

At anytime to stop the bleeding, Brooklyn could and did feed Aldridge at the free throw line extended and we could do nothing about it.

He was their leading scorers by design man. They actually put the ball in James Johnson's hands late when Harden didn't have it to see if he could be counted on as a bench initiator.

Not KD, not Mills, not Blake... James Johnson.

They were setting their chess board up, preparing for a playoff run and we were playing checkers trying to win an unwinnable game when we could have been doing the same which would have included force feeding Okoro and making him assert himself.

But on to the Warriors tomorrow night.

I bet one of Otto Porter, Kuminga, Poole, Lee or Bjelica is schematically featured in the clutch to prepare for a playoff contribution

Click to expand...

When the Nets absolutely needed a bucket they simply put Kevin Love in a pick and roll with James Harden and got a layup.

Yea, I guess there is a world where they coulda fucked around enough and just started missing some easy shots and we got hot and we could haven't stolen that game but it was highly unlikely.

Rich said:

Eh, this isn't what I'm arguing at all and you know that.

No one thinks just tossing the ball out there and saying "hey, go do whatever" is a good idea.

The goal, though, would be to put Okoro in the same situations he was in last year to end the year where he started to find success.

That's the point.

Click to expand...

And you think, based on what we’ve seen so far when he has had the ball in his hands, it would have resulted in anything other than “hey, go do what ever” and the team getting its shit kicked in?

Okoro needs a hard reset. He’s not going to get that by forcing the ball into his hands. All that’s going to do is hurt the team as a whole.

Rich said:

Because those were his best moments last year. Never did he look capable as a 3 and D player. But when Sexton or Garland were out to end the year, he looked way, way more comfortable initiating the pick and roll and quickly getting down hill.

Those were the times where you felt like you might have something with him.

Click to expand...

I'm honestly not convinced by an end of the year 8-game stretch where we were outscored by 129 points in total and teams generally are tanking/resting for the playoffs that it shows Okoro will be an offensive creator with development. He just doesn't have the handles, the instincts of what to do on offense after he gets moving, or the natural movement to have that kind of upside imo. You're also talking about this small sample size where he scored on lower than 51% TS as the best indication of this ability we've seen from him in his career, so that's not promising. Looking at what he's shown on the whole and especially this season, I just don't see it at all. Sure he didn't look capable as a 3+D player but becoming a decent corner 3 point shooter is a hell of a lot easier than what you're asking for, and we've seen countless examples historically of raw offensive players becoming serviceable shooters as their careers go on. It is incredibly rare for guys who look as incapable offensively as Okoro to turn into effective primary or even secondary ballhandlers.