MLB Lock-Out is Finally Freakin’ Over

Here is the thing, as human beings, we do the best for ourselves. Even those who appear caring for others, usually get gratification from the joy of seeing someone else succeed. It is a matter of what we prioritize when factoring our happiness, even for the masochist or sadist.

Adam Akron or Mary Strongsville would love to revel in joy of toasting a championship, like the million downtown for Cavs, especially if free. Do they give up $500 to buy a few games to watch the Guard or $10 more a month for TV sports package? I do $10 package for Ballys. Hard to do if fans only make $50,000 and have few kids who needs braces (or do they really need straight teeth?). But, they will come to the parade and say they were fans back to days of 10 cent beers (but not $9 beers). Maybe when my kids leave college, I can afford a patial game plan (atleast for Akron). Yet, it will depend on if my wife says I can use extra money for fun or if she wants to use it to fund a scholarship at he alma mater.

Would a Ramirez sign a discounted contract to stay in Cleveland? Time will tell. Yet, it will be based on factors such as love of city, joy of signing autographs for kids and if he wants a few millions more to invest in his home town where many are impoverished. Yet, giving up $10-$20 million is easier for him (than $500 when you make $50,000), especially if he signs $150 million 6 yr contract. But, he will only do it, if it maxes out his happiness. Happiness sometimes depends on feeling of value whether maxing out your contract to prove worth or donating $ to get your name on building or be praised in hometown for feeding the hungry. Next few years will show where Jose feels of value.

Dolan does what is best for him too. He has a plan which is to sell majority ownership only when he feels he has maximized the value of team to pull as much value out as possible. He knows the levers that drive attendence and knows just like Jacobs that even with winning, sooner or later the fans overspend or just get tired of going to games. I remember inviting clients to Progressive field for playoff games with free beer and Terrace Club after 95/97 WS runs and they decided to go home to their kids (go figure). They did what made them happy but cost me fron going to game w no clients for writeoff.

Even though Dolan isn't as wealthy as other owners, he can sell 10% stake for $116 million to support payroll for few years (even more when you factor in less taxes due to less profit). And, he could afford it, when factoring in his net worth when he sells Guardians utimately - as he did with selling more share to Sherman.

Yet, should we blame Adam Akron, Lindor or Dolan for doing what we do? Do you tell your boss that he can lower your salary by $20,000 to get through a rough economy? No, many though are forced to do it with a smile on their face (during COVID esp). Should Adam Akron give up $500 to help Dolan make payroll with current cash reserves only?

I have pointed out Dolan decision to not spend when he could but also debated if it was wiser to spend or save $ for when they could compete more. I have no problem with Lindor wanting to max out his salary and not accept Indians first $300 million contract in history with so many caveats (before being pulled for COVID). I would be happy for Ramirez whereever he signs. Yet, I don't either blame the fan for not showing up but wanting a winner. Just like Lindor said he loved our city but was hesitent to sign any mega contract in front of him. Nor, do I blame Dolan for wanting to be worth $1.16 billion instead of just $1 billion. Maybe he will donate $616 million to charity instead of $500 million. We all do what is best for us, whether it is watching in stadium, at home or down in Akron where we can afford a beer and ice cream for kids.

Criznit said:

I don't want to argue this point too much, I guess it depends on what you think constitutes improvement or acceptable numbers

In 2016 Attendance was 1,591,667 - we lost the series in 7 (Great game 7 - just didn't go our way)
In 2017 Attendance was 2,048,138 - an increase of 456,471 people... Or as a percentage: 28.67880027669104%

Feel free to check my math, I maybe off.

Cleveland Guardians Attendance, Stadiums, and Park Factors | Baseball-Reference.com

Cleveland Guardians Attendance, Stadiums, and Park Factors

www.baseball-reference.com

Click to expand...

I'm not sure why you decided to round your percentage to the 14th digit after the decimal point, but I suppose I can overlook the inexactness this once.

Lee said:

Better than I remember, valid point, no need to argue. I didnt do the research, i just remember i thought it would be a bigger jump.

And to be fair, i havent been to an Indians game in 20 years, but i do go to a couple of spring training games every year if you think that counts.

Click to expand...

Only Indians Guardians games I make it to are ST games once every few years and when (most years) they play in Seattle. So we're good

BimboColesHair said:

Contentious doesn't mean that they are going to take their sweet ass time with this.

There is a wide gap between a number of key points that need negotiated down, and those negotiations will get heated, angry, frustrating, argumentative...whatever other adjective you want to use. That doesn't mean it will take a year to talk about though.

There are going to be tough negotiations ahead that will, yes, get contentious. However, both groups are motivated to meet with each other as much as possible to get this done as quickly as possible. I fail to see how these "don't match up".

It becomes a problem when one or both sides don't feel pressured to meet.

Click to expand...

Uh....

They aren't meeting now, and none are scheduled.

I'm sorry, but nothing that has happened, no proposal put forth, and no public quote has signaled that either side is truly worried about the future of baseball.

There is a big difference to day you are worried about the future of baseball and actually doing the things necessary to sustain the game.

I'm reminded of something Vince Lombardi told his teams about winning.

Winning isn't the most important thing. Doing the things necessary to win is.

Neither side has shown any indication of wanting to do the things necessary to move baseball forward.

A salary cap, IF tied to total revenue sharing, IF tied to a minimum payroll, IF tied to owners being forced to invest all their shared revenue into their baseball teams, IF tied to an increase of total wages commensurate with increased revenues would move the game forward.

Using numbers pulled out of thin air as an illustration...

Lets say that right now the total payroll for all 30 teams is $3.5 billion....ranging from the Mets at $250 mil to Baltimore at $30 mil.

Whats the difference if the total number stays the same, but the spread is $ 180 mil to $120 mil?

No difference over all, but individually there wouldn't be $40 mil pitchers and $ .5 mil util players.

Players want nothing to do with a salary cap, and I dont blame them. The owners with huge revenue streams don't want share them, and I dont blame them. Owners with small revenue streams don't want to be told how to spend their money, and I don't blame them. After all, they are all capitalists.

But capitalism is, and always will be, financial anarchy. The basic premise of capitalism is to make the most money for the smallest investment and to bury as much of the competition as possible. There is zero altruism in capitalism. And without a sense of altruism, in which all concerned make sacrifices for the common good, no mutual combine can move forward.

Every proposal from both sides so far, is based upon self interest, presented as fair to all concerned. They are all Trojan horses. Trojan horses are designed for conquest, not the common good.


********

You miss the point if you say that a more balanced schedule would effect divisional rivals equally. As long as wild cards are part of the playoff scheme, a more balanced schedule would force us to compete with the Yankees and Red Sox for those wild card spots.

Unless there is a vast change in the way MLB is constructed, that's a battle that a franchise in Cleveland can't win.

Many people who defend the lack of a salary cap by pointing out the success of smaller market teams ignore the main reason for those successes, which is the unbalanced schedule that prevents the monster teams from devouring the smaller ones in the regular season.

Playing twelve more games against NY, Boston, Toronto, and Houston would put a huge dent in any chance for a wild card spot. Dent is the wrong word...being totaled around a telephone pole would be more accurate.

Today we play 19 games vs each division opponent. In the old days...an eight team league and a balanced schedule...we played each opponent 22 times. We are searching for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

There is no loyalty in capitalism....nor in baseball.

Reps for both sides have been talking every day for the past week.

But please, tell me more.

petes999 said:

Here is the thing, as human beings, we do the best for ourselves. Even those who appear caring for others, usually get gratification from the joy of seeing someone else succeed. It is a matter of what we prioritize when factoring our happiness, even for the masochist or sadist.

Adam Akron or Mary Strongsville would love to revel in joy of toasting a championship, like the million downtown for Cavs, especially if free. Do they give up $500 to buy a few games to watch the Guard or $10 more a month for TV sports package? I do $10 package for Ballys. Hard to do if fans only make $50,000 and have few kids who needs braces (or do they really need straight teeth?). But, they will come to the parade and say they were fans back to days of 10 cent beers (but not $9 beers). Maybe when my kids leave college, I can afford a patial game plan (atleast for Akron). Yet, it will depend on if my wife says I can use extra money for fun or if she wants to use it to fund a scholarship at he alma mater.

Would a Ramirez sign a discounted contract to stay in Cleveland? Time will tell. Yet, it will be based on factors such as love of city, joy of signing autographs for kids and if he wants a few millions more to invest in his home town where many are impoverished. Yet, giving up $10-$20 million is easier for him (than $500 when you make $50,000), especially if he signs $150 million 6 yr contract. But, he will only do it, if it maxes out his happiness. Happiness sometimes depends on feeling of value whether maxing out your contract to prove worth or donating $ to get your name on building or be praised in hometown for feeding the hungry. Next few years will show where Jose feels of value.

Dolan does what is best for him too. He has a plan which is to sell majority ownership only when he feels he has maximized the value of team to pull as much value out as possible. He knows the levers that drive attendence and knows just like Jacobs that even with winning, sooner or later the fans overspend or just get tired of going to games. I remember inviting clients to Progressive field for playoff games with free beer and Terrace Club after 95/97 WS runs and they decided to go home to their kids (go figure). They did what made them happy but cost me fron going to game w no clients for writeoff.

Even though Dolan isn't as wealthy as other owners, he can sell 10% stake for $116 million to support payroll for few years (even more when you factor in less taxes due to less profit). And, he could afford it, when factoring in his net worth when he sells Guardians utimately - as he did with selling more share to Sherman.

Yet, should we blame Adam Akron, Lindor or Dolan for doing what we do? Do you tell your boss that he can lower your salary by $20,000 to get through a rough economy? No, many though are forced to do it with a smile on their face (during COVID esp). Should Adam Akron give up $500 to help Dolan make payroll with current cash reserves only?

I have pointed out Dolan decision to not spend when he could but also debated if it was wiser to spend or save $ for when they could compete more. I have no problem with Lindor wanting to max out his salary and not accept Indians first $300 million contract in history with so many caveats (before being pulled for COVID). I would be happy for Ramirez whereever he signs. Yet, I don't either blame the fan for not showing up but wanting a winner. Just like Lindor said he loved our city but was hesitent to sign any mega contract in front of him. Nor, do I blame Dolan for wanting to be worth $1.16 billion instead of just $1 billion. Maybe he will donate $616 million to charity instead of $500 million. We all do what is best for us, whether it is watching in stadium, at home or down in Akron where we can afford a beer and ice cream for kids.

Click to expand...

This post was very well stated.

We never truly know each others motivations as much as we want to believe we do, all we know is what motivates ourselves.. The bandwagon has a lot of horsepower, but hopping on is a choice.

BimboColesHair said:

Reps for both sides have been talking every day for the past week.

But please, tell me more.

Click to expand...

These are headlines within the last 48 hours...

'Collective bargaining agreement NEGOTIATIONS not expected until 2022.'

-Blake Williams of Dodger Nation

'Progress on a CBA isn't expected until weeks before pitchers and catchers report.'

-Jake Seiner, AP


********

Neither news reports make it sound as if either side has any consideration for the best interests of baseball.

As someone who has been involved in a small way with these type of things, both sides at the moment have only one priority....winning.

The MLBPA thought they 'won' the last one, only to find out they didn't, at least in its own mind. Their perfect solution is that every player becomes a free agent at the end of each season, unless he has agreed to a long term contract...no team control for even the rawest rookie.

The owners still feel the sting of losing to Marvin Miller and Don Fehr. They are determined not to open their books nor to allow the players any self determination...a return to the 1920s.

Neither ultimate goal is realistic, and both sides know it...but both sides want to get as close as possible to their respective Nirvana.

But go ahead and believe that both sides care about what's best for baseball.

A microcosm of this whole thing is the non effort to speed up the game. Everybody says that the game needs to be sped up, but thats not what they really want. Pitchers want the game to be sped up, but only if they don't have to speed up between pitches. Batters want the game to speed up, but only as long as they can step out of the box, adjust their gloves and every piece of padding, and take their practice cuts. Managers want to speed the game up, but only if they are allowed to use as many pitchers as they choose. Owners want to speed the game up, but only if they can cram as many commercials as possible into the period between half innings...and nobody wants to put a clock on instant replays.

Speeding up the game is simple.

20 seconds between pitches when there was no action after the last one. Batters can't step out of the box. 30 second limit on instant replay. If NY can't make a determination in 30 seconds, the call stands. A 12 pitcher limit on rosters. Cut commercial time to what it takes for the pitcher to throw his warm ups.

The last is not difficult. Commercials can now be run on split screens. There no longer is a necessity to leave the broadcast.

All those rule changes are simple and would be effective. It shouldn't take five years of negotiations and debate. Just do it. Except that nobody really wants to shorten their part of the problem.


-

Again, reps for both sides have been talking for a week now.

Just was fooling around this morning and Dolan is poor .... he has had some of the smallest increase in his team valuations. However, in looking at what goes into the valuations, you have to remember that the # of regular fans who go to the game is probably the lowest impact. Even if Guardians sell 10,000 more tickets per game (back to Cubs Yankees level .. from 14,500 to 24,500 based on 2021 attendance), that is $40 per ticket/concessions for 81 games = $32 million. However, that isn't the real growth in revenue. Most articles will say the growth is TV revenue which we have one of the lowest (8th lowest) of $47 million (per fangraph est of 2020 local tv market) even though we have one of the highest market share ratings. Now, will we ever compete with the Yankees? No ... so that $32 million in ticket sales to get to their level is out of line ... more like 1/2 that amount at best $16 million would even get us to average mlb level last year. The other big downside is the loss of corporate suit sales in 90s and early 2000s. Factor in $350 per box ticket for 16 tickets for 82 games = $450,000 per box per year (for a bad box). This also doesn't include the loss of sales of regular seats as corporation downsized their regular seat purchases too (my company started splitting tickets with another company). When you go, how many boxes go unused for a game? There are a lot and this doesn't even account for the other stadiums (look at Cowboys) who added corporate boxes to increase their revenue.

Will Dolan get rich as other owners by owning the Guardians? No. He bought at the wrong time (2000) when revenue was based on ticket sales and we were still selling out. And, our market now has 3 teams Browns, Cavs and Guardians (okay 4 if you count rollerderby team too) but Browns were just coming back. And, then revenue turned to corporate sales and TV (and NFL) which Dolans did great at at first to do STO owned type broadcasting before locking team into a long-term deal too early. Hopefully, the next TV contract in 2 years can add 50% or more to that $47 million. Like I said yesterday, we (fans) may not go to the games as much but we still watch our Guardians (for a small market).

If you look at Dolans increase in team valuation (per Forbes) from 2003 to 2021, it was a mere 350% vs mlb ave of 650%. From 2013 to 2021, it was better 208% vs league ave of 256%. It will always be below due to having a smaller market versus larger markets but he is a poor team owner now due to buying Indians too high before the valuations changed to TV and corporate sales from just regular seating sales. In 2000, Indians were great due to a new stadium and a competitive team in 90s (Indians could pack 40,000 just like Yankees putting them up in top 10 in valuations. But then the landscape changed and people started to stay at home to watch games (just like watching hbo/netflix vs going to movies). It is not really fan issue; it was market changed and Dolan bought at wrong time. He should have invested in Amazon instead (wish I did).

2003 Val 2013 Val 2021 Val Increases (to 2021 from 2003 and from 2013)
Yankees 849 2,300 5,250 618% 228%
Dodgers 449 1,615 3,570 795% 221%
Red Sox 488 1,312 3,465 710% 264%
Cubs 335 1,000 3,360 1003% 336%
Phillies 239 893 2,050 858% 230%
Mets 498 811 2,450 492% 302%
Giants 332 786 3,175 956% 404%
Rangers 382 764 1,785 467% 234%
Angels 225 718 2,025 900% 282%
Cardinals 308 716 2,245 729% 314%
White Sox 233 692 1,685 723% 243%
Mariners 385 644 1,630 423% 253%
Tigers 237 643 1,260 532% 196%
Nationals 113 631 1,925 1704% 305%
Braves 423 629 1,875 443% 298%
Astros 327 626 1,870 572% 299%
Orioles 310 618 1,430 461% 231%
Padres 226 600 1,500 664% 250%
Diamondbacks 269 584 1,320 491% 226%
Twins 148 578 1,325 895% 229%
Blue Jays 166 568 1,675 1009% 295%
Brewers 206 562 1,220 592% 217%
Guardians 331 559 1,160 350% 208%
Reds 233 546 1,085 466% 199%
Rockies 304 537 1,300 428% 242%
Marlins 136 520 990 728% 190%
Pirates 224 479 1,285 574% 268%
Athletics 172 468 1,125 654% 240%
Royals 153 457 1,060 693% 232%
Rays 145 451 1,055 728% 234%
Total 8,846 22,307 57,150 646% 256%

And as a side note to my investigation ... if you look at 2020 COVID revenues, a lot of teams lost a lot of money. However, the Guardians were supposedly the lowest at $20 million loss. Rays, Pirates and Baltimore were $21-$23 million in losses (those with smallest payroll). The average was $60 million.

That valuation is going to jump substantially in the next few years.

But yes, as far as cash flow is concerned, he is one of the poorest owners, and not just in baseball.

@CATS44

Let me ask you something... how is your American History knowledge? I have my reasons for asking and I'll explain once you answer

sportscoach said:

@CATS44

Let me ask you something... how is your American History knowledge? I have my reasons for asking and I'll explain once you answer

Click to expand...

before this blows up, take it to DMs.

No one cares about American History and how it relates to the Lockout.

Some of these rep talks this past week have gone a long way hammering out each sides wanted parameters and are being treated as a blueprint for each side to go over during the holiday's.

Sounds like they are going to separate this week or early next week, take that info back to the leadership groups, go over it, take a break for Christmas and New Years and then we should see our first "official" meeting of the 2 groups 1st or 2nd week of January where I am sure there will be some proposals.