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Collin Sexton | The Young Bull

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What Resolves First?

  • Collin Sexton's Restricted Free Agency

    Votes: 19 38.8%

  • Baker Mayfield's Tenure with the Browns

    Votes: 30 61.2%
  • Total voters
    49
  • Poll closed .
gambler said:
i agree but it could happen if hes some sort of wackjob...sexton and paul both know the cavs want ecf and sextons a big part of it. ...
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I am not so sure about that. Cavs currently don't have any empty roster spots. Sure, they would make room for Sexton if he agrees on a team-friendly deal, but it would seem to me Cavs consider Sexton to be "nice to have" instead of "must have". Sexton very likely during training camp has to compete for playing time, and if he misses training camp, it might become more difficult to get any meaningful minutes if the others have shown during training camp they deserve the minutes, and who have thus already digested the tactics and system set for the team.
 
CleveRocks said:
Just don't see Sexton pulling a Ben Simmons.. He is way too competitive.. I don't think Simmons cares that much about Basketball, but Sexton thinks it's part of his DNA..
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agree and thats why i bet the cavs...one way or another somethings goign to get done....if not and he sits.....imo...garlands ecf is not going to happen....QO and RFA are there for a reason.....myb someone like simmons coudl pull it off but eventually the owners are goign to take a stand on who can sit and who cant and two-year sexton is one taht cant....coudl easily see all the owners sending out a precedent taht a guy of sextons stature ....you sit.....youre fuked...you play on the QO when you come back
 
Douglar said:
First, disclaimer-- I don't know what happened behind closed doors. That said, it seems possible Sexton's first agent brought him the generous deal from the Cavs in July 2021, but Sexton had been watching too much Disney+ and it all went down hill fast.

a41.jpg
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if you arent gonna listen to your agent then you should fire him anyways because he's taking a portion of your contract either way
 
Peacedog said:
Yeah, but Allen's options last year were either to take the Cavs offer, get an offer sheet from another team, or take the QO. Only with the last option would he have been on the market this summer. And he would have already been about $13 million in the hole from 21-22 earnings, so I'm not sure there was much to be gained for him.
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Allen had three or four teams ready to make a hard run at him last summer, they were publicly leaking as much so as to signal to his agent not to sign the first offer the Cavs made, which is why the Cavs didn't leave it to chance.
 
My 2 cents, for whatever it's worth is, you don't determine Sexton's value based on whatever our salary cap implications are, that's a fool's path. You want to keep talent, whatever that costs, and then figure out the rest. Sexton, regardless of position/starting etc... is a top 5 player on our team, maybe even top 3 this year.

But I do think you consider how high you can go and still have a tradable contract. Is paying Sexton closer to 17/18 mill a season harder to trade than 15 million? I don't think it ends up being any more difficult, probably could even go up to 20 million a year, and he's still tradable and seen as a "promising talent" etc... (aka, he doesn't hurt a trade). Yeah, 25 million a year, and you'll struggle to find a partner (but at 3 years, might not even be that difficult).

With all that in mind, I see no reason for Sexton to sign yet, if he can squeeze go from 3 years 40 million to 3 years 50 million (or even 3 years at 41 million), that is easily worth the wait, and for the Cavs, probably a very good deal still that's easy to trade if necessary.
 
guitarguy said:
My 2 cents, for whatever it's worth is, you don't determine Sexton's value based on whatever our salary cap implications are, that's a fool's path. You want to keep talent, whatever that costs, and then figure out the rest. Sexton, regardless of position/starting etc... is a top 5 player on our team, maybe even top 3 this year.

But I do think you consider how high you can go and still have a tradable contract. Is paying Sexton closer to 17/18 mill a season harder to trade than 15 million? I don't think it ends up being any more difficult, probably could even go up to 20 million a year, and he's still tradable and seen as a "promising talent" etc... (aka, he doesn't hurt a trade). Yeah, 25 million a year, and you'll struggle to find a partner (but at 3 years, might not even be that difficult).

With all that in mind, I see no reason for Sexton to sign yet, if he can squeeze go from 3 years 40 million to 3 years 50 million (or even 3 years at 41 million), that is easily worth the wait, and for the Cavs, probably a very good deal still that's easy to trade if necessary.
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Unless you're a bad team, or a team that's reached its ceiling well short of contender status, the primary factor you should be considering when making either contract or trade offers is what that player's value is to your team as presently constructed. Allen, Mobley, and Garland are this team's best three players (it's not particularly close either) and that's a good young core. The window for building the team around Sexton as a core player closed when those three proved themselves last season and the team played better without him. For all practical purposes, I suspect it closed earlier than that, and that's why he was made available by the F.O. last summer, but he's clearly not a good fit with those three given his game.

So the Cavs have concluded that 3 years/$40M is fair for a sixth man and that $20M per is not. It's not responsibility of the Cavs to develop Sexton's market outside of Cleveland. That's the responsibility of his agents. It's what they get paid to do. For two summers in a row now, first his trade market and now his free agency market, his market has been well below what his agents were suggesting. My concern is that after an agent has attempted to develop a market for his client and found it wanting, the agent's job is to relay that information to the client. For whatever reasons, Sexton's expectations appear to be wildly misaligned with his market. That is also not the fault of the Cavs organization.
 
Derek said:
The offensive rating with Sexton on the floor:
2021-22: 102.2 (11 games)
2020-21: 107.4
2019-20: 109.8
2018-19: 107.8

League average was about 112 the last two years, and about 110.5 the two years before that.

He still needs to prove that he can actually be a part of a good offense. Our offense was slightly above league average without him last year (113.1).
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This just makes last year look like a fluke because he was shooting so poorly.
 
Cavatt said:
This just makes last year look like a fluke because he was shooting so poorly.
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It almost definitely is, but all the numbers are bad, and the best offense we’ve seen in the last four seasons was without him.

He still needs to prove that he can consistently impact the game in a positive way, because he hasn’t done it yet.
 
CavsKermit said:
Unless you're a bad team, or a team that's reached its ceiling well short of contender status, the primary factor you should be considering when making either contract or trade offers is what that player's value is to your team as presently constructed. Allen, Mobley, and Garland are this team's best three players (it's not particularly close either) and that's a good young core. The window for building the team around Sexton as a core player closed when those three proved themselves last season and the team played better without him. For all practical purposes, I suspect it closed earlier than that, and that's why he was made available by the F.O. last summer, but he's clearly not a good fit with those three given his game.

So the Cavs have concluded that 3 years/$40M is fair for a sixth man and that $20M per is not. It's not responsibility of the Cavs to develop Sexton's market outside of Cleveland. That's the responsibility of his agents. It's what they get paid to do. For two summers in a row now, first his trade market and now his free agency market, his market has been well below what his agents were suggesting. My concern is that after an agent has attempted to develop a market for his client and found it wanting, the agent's job is to relay that information to the client. For whatever reasons, Sexton's expectations appear to be wildly misaligned with his market. That is also not the fault of the Cavs organization.
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Whether the 3/40 is actually true (we know Fedor is their mouthpiece, but who really knows) I guess that's all irrelevant. Just because teams aren't banging down the door to offer Collin 20 million a year doesn't mean it makes it a bad contract amount. I often wonder why a team would even bother doing all the work to create an offer for a player they know their current organization will just match (unless it's way over somehow). If the word around the league is the Cavs will match offers, it doesn't give other teams much interest in offering them something.

Regardless, my real point is, letting talent go, especially a top 5 player on your team for basically nothing or to protect the cap is poor planning imo. You can still trade him later if it doesn't work, and if it does work out, you win. Aside from Sexton having chronic injuries, his contract anywhere between 12 mill and 20 mill a year, imo, be very tradable.

edit: by the way, not advocating for 20 million, just saying it's good to keep talent (especially in a non-FA destination)
 
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Derek said:
It almost definitely is, but all the numbers are bad, and the best offense we’ve seen in the last four seasons was without him.

He still needs to prove that he can consistently impact the game in a positive way, because he hasn’t done it yet.
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His personal off rating was 96 down from 111 in 20-21. It was 100, 108 and 111 in his first 3 years. Cavs off rating was 112 last year.

Guy got consistently better every year. No reason to think those first 11 games were real and the previous whole season was fake.
 
guitarguy said:
Whether the 3/40 is actually true (we know Fedor is their mouthpiece, but who really knows) I guess that's all irrelevant. Just because teams aren't banging down the door to offer Collin 20 million a year doesn't mean it makes it a bad contract amount. I often wonder why a team would even bother doing all the work to create an offer for a player they know their current organization will just match (unless it's way over somehow). If the word around the league is the Cavs will match offers, it doesn't give other teams much interest in offering them something.

Regardless, my real point is, letting talent go, especially a top 5 player on your team for basically nothing or to protect the cap is poor planning imo. You can still trade him later if it doesn't work, and if it does work out, you win. Aside from Sexton having chronic injuries, his contract anywhere between 12 mill and 20 mill a year, imo, be very tradable.

edit: by the way, not advocating for 20 million, just saying it's good to keep talent (especially in a non-FA destination)
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If you're paying a player far more than anyone else is interested in offering him, that is, by definition a bad contract. Especially if it's the case that said player will be coming back to a reduced role on your team. If you plan on expanding that player's role, and you're convinced your internal projections as to future performance are accurate, then maybe the player can play up to the contract, but until he does, it's a bad contract.

As far as RFA and it being just *too hard* to tender offer sheets, I'm sorry but that's just flat out silly. These are professional organizations with employees whose job it is prepare contracts. The Spurs and Pacers are sitting on tons of cap space, there's no one else to sign, and the waiting period is all of 48 hours for a team to match. Two other lottery teams basically used their $20M slots on journeymen vets a couple of whom didn't even have positive trade value. There has been zero public indication from the Cavs that they'll match all offers, and even if they were to send that message, if a team liked Sexton enough, they'd present an offer sheet and make the Cavs put their money where their mouth was. That's precisely what happened with Ayton.
 
Cavatt said:
His personal off rating was 96 down from 111 in 20-21. It was 100, 108 and 111 in his first 3 years. Cavs off rating was 112 last year.

Guy got consistently better every year. No reason to think those first 11 games were real and the previous whole season was fake.
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I never said anything of the sort. I actually said his poor play was almost definitely a fluke.

Doesn’t change the fact that we’ve yet to see him positively impact the game on a consistent basis.
 
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Derek said:
I never said anything of the sort. I actually said his poor play was almost definitely a fluke.

Doesn’t change the fact that we’ve yet to see him positively impact the game on a consistent basis.
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The high Sexton usage rate and low assist percentages are just a reality. Does he get buckets fairly efficiently for a guard? Absolutely.

However, his usage percentages led the team at over 27% at the beginning of 2021. He also led the team in scoring at 16 ppg.

What happened when he got hurt? Of course Garland and Rubio had a bump in usage rating, but more importantly Allen and Mobley saw a huge bump in usage. The big three all enjoyed a huge and immediate bump in scoring when Sexton was out, they had the ball in their hands more often... and they delivered.

I don't think anyone needs to examine usage splits to come to this conclusion. The eyeball test should be enough. However, it's certainly right there if anybody needs the quantifiable proof.

Sexton definitely has a role in this rotation, but it cannot be the same one he filled for four seasons.
 
Randolphkeys said:
The high Sexton usage rate and low assist percentages are just a reality. Does he get buckets fairly efficiently for a guard? Absolutely.

However, his usage percentages led the team at over 27% at the beginning of 2021. He also led the team in scoring at 16 ppg.

What happened when he got hurt? Of course Garland and Rubio had a bump in usage rating, but more importantly Allen and Mobley saw a huge bump in usage. The big three all enjoyed a huge and immediate bump in scoring when Sexton was out, they had the ball in their hands more often... and they delivered.

I don't think anyone needs to examine usage splits to come to this conclusion. The eyeball test should be enough. However, it's certainly right there if anybody needs the quantifiable proof.

Sexton definitely has a role in this rotation, but it cannot be the same one he filled for four seasons.
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This is an aspect that doesn’t get talked about enough.

Even in Allen’s first year here, he saw a big dip in his scoring and his efficiency when Sexton was on the floor.

They really need to figure that out if they’re going to move forward with Sexton on the roster.
 
inliner311 said:
It's like around 17.4 million. Windler makes alittle over 4 million and the Cavs basically are at 13.4 until they hit the luxury tax.

Get rid of Cedi and it's like 20 million. Get rid of Stevens and it's like 15 million.

Ship Windler and Cedi then take back a player making the lowest to make a trade work, which is 5 million less than what Windler and Cedi make together, and they can give Sexton 18.4 million.
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I think Sexton ends up siging for about 1 million or so dollars less than the whatever that number ends up being just to give the Cavs a small bit of wiggle room. With a 2nd year team option. The Cavs will rescind his QO to be able to sign him to a contract as a UFA instead of a 3 year deal as a RFA.

So 2 years…33-34 million. That’s how I see this playing out. Makes more sense for BOTH sides than Sexton playing on the qualifying offer. Sexton even if he had to play under a team controlled deal next year too would be making like nearly 18 million in year two heading into unrestricted free agency.

Just think this is clearly where this heads. Basically same thing that Bamba did with Orlando.
 
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