• Changing RCF's index page, please click on "Forums" to access the forums.

2022 Off-season Thread - The Future is Bright

Do Not Sell My Personal Information
Status
Not open for further replies.
here comes that bandwagon......fukn love this team with sexton and a SF that can shoot the three...

 
With Game 7 on the line in the final seconds against Golden State LeBron deferred to Kyrie to take the do-or-die shot. Why? Kyrie had the better matchup. The GOAT went and stood in the corner with the game coming down to one shot. He wanted a Championship more than he wanted to "dominate" the game.

If he came back to Cleveland he would adapt his game to whatever the Cavs need to win. And I believe having him around would HELP the development of players like Garland and Mobley, not detract from their long term potential. They would learn a lot from him.
LeBron will make the right basketball play almost to a fault. Anyone else remember that Yell brick in 07? Or was it Damon Jones? I digress. If Garland is covered by a weaker defender then yes, LeBron will get out of the way and let him do his thing.

Making the correct play in certain game situations is not the same as altering your playstyle for 99% of the game. I am sure he is fully capable of playing the way we would like as a secondary creator and less dominant offensive weapon. The bigger question is WILL he. And historically, I think he has shown no he will not. This is the main reason I am not sure he helps the development of our young core. I am open to discussion though. Why do you think he will be able to help develop our core?

One last (extended) thought on LeBron adjusting down. The best example we have of an older Bron playing with young guys is the first year in LA. Now 2019 Ingram, Lonzo, and Kuz are not as good as any of our big 3 players, but all of them were young developing talents that could have been accelerated if LeBron had changed his play style a little bit. It didn't happen. You can see similar changes with the other ball dominant, slow it down, game manager of this era in CP3. Until he was basically on one leg, he was the one controlling the pace of the game and younger stars had to adjust, even an MVP level James Harden. PHX is a perfect situation for him with Booker who is a good offball wing and Ayton as a PnR big.
 
The issue is that when you say that “historically” Lebron has not been willing to adjust downward is that there are almost no examples in his career where it would have made any sense for him to adjust downward. So it is hard to say that historically he was unwilling when one can just as easily say that historically he has made the right basketball moves. Now the 2019 case you raise is an interesting and intelligent example. In that case there is a decent argument that if Lebron had adjusted downward to develop the young players, the Lakers would have been better off today - in the long run. However, in the short run by ditching the young guys and bringing in AD Lebron produced a championship in 2020. So even there he had a good case for what he did.

Also, people are discussing Lebron like he is Westbrook or Harden. Lebron is not unusually ball dominant for someone who essentially plays PG. He has a usage of about 31% in most years. The issue has been his unwillingness to let go of the PG position
 
LeBron would not be brought here to "develop our young core". He'd be brought in to push them over the hump and win a Championship.

A deep playoff run would do wonders for the development of Garland, Mobley, et al. So would playing with LeBron for 40 regular season games plus the playoffs. They'd end up getting so many dunks and layups it would be ridiculous.

Look at how awesome Garland and Rubio were playing together last year. Two of the best passers in the league on the floor at the same time. Now imagine replacing one of them with LeBron. We could have Garland and LeBron, Garland and Rubio, or Rubio and LeBron on the floor for 40 minutes a game. Opponents would have no chance.
 
The issue is that when you say that “historically” Lebron has not been willing to adjust downward is that there are almost no examples in his career where it would have made any sense for him to adjust downward. So it is hard to say that historically he was unwilling when one can just as easily say that historically he has made the right basketball moves. Now the 2019 case you raise is an interesting and intelligent example. In that case there is a decent argument that if Lebron had adjusted downward to develop the young players, the Lakers would have been better off today - in the long run. However, in the short run by ditching the young guys and bringing in AD Lebron produced a championship in 2020. So even there he had a good case for what he did.

Also, people are discussing Lebron like he is Westbrook or Harden. Lebron is not unusually ball dominant for someone who essentially plays PG. He has a usage of about 31% in most years. The issue has been his unwillingness to let go of the PG position
So three things here.

First on the downward adjustment. I think 2011 and 2015 are the two strongest cases for when he should have downshifted. Wade was an MVP level guy in 2011 but you made a good argument earlier as to why LeBron probably shifted down too much in that case. 2015 is a bit more complicated. I think we could've pushed more of the offense onto Love and used him as a high post hub, but that strategically was difficult to do with LeBron. As is, he did give Kyrie a decent amount of space and when Kyrie was really cooking (the 57 vs SAS for example), he enabled that a lot. I think you could probably find a few other seasons where it would have made sense to have an even more optimal result where LeBron downshifted a bit more than he did in practice.

Second, following up on the above. LeBron has always been championship or bust since 2011. Clearly its worked for him with 4 rings and a few other finals to boot. But, if you are in championship or bust mode, that is counterproductive to development of younger talent. The AD trade is the perfect example of that. On paper, we are a better version of the 2018 Lakers right now. I really don't want us to trade idk Garland and Allen for Bradley Beal or Dame just so LeBron can get another ring for his legacy. Obviously, that answer is hyperbolic, but if LeBron comes here, it has to be abundantly clear our ONLY goal is not to just win a championship in 2023. Our goal is to improve the team as a whole and set up for a strong period of contention 5-8 years from now.

Third, on the LeBron as PG issue. Yeah, fully agree with you there. He has always been the focal point of the offense and at this point I think its too late to expect him to do a lot of the off ball stuff. I dont think it would devolve into a your turn - my turn sort of offense, but if LeBron comes here, Garland is instantly the best pure PG he has ever played with. Id like him to get that usage rate down a little bit into the 27-28 range. We could still keep the excellent box creation that way.
 
Last edited:
LeBron would not be brought here to "develop our young core". He'd be brought in to push them over the hump and win a Championship.

A deep playoff run would do wonders for the development of Garland, Mobley, et al. So would playing with LeBron for 40 regular season games plus the playoffs. They'd end up getting so many dunks and layups it would be ridiculous.

Look at how awesome Garland and Rubio were playing together last year. Two of the best passers in the league on the floor at the same time. Now imagine replacing one of them with LeBron. We could have Garland and LeBron, Garland and Rubio, or Rubio and LeBron on the floor for 40 minutes a game. Opponents would have no chance.
I can agree with your second and third points here. Playoff experience is critical, but I am not sure getting 40 games of trying to reconfigure the offense in the middle of the season is the best way to do it. I don't expect our current coaching staff would do a great job of it for one thing.

I also do not think adding LeBron suddenly elevates us to championship contention. Again, lets say we trade Lauri, Caris, Okoro and Cedi/Windler to make this work with the cap. LeBron adds about 34-36 MPG at 1/3/4 where our pace drops substantially. We lose our best PoA defender and one of three real shooting threats in the process.

We still have the same problems we do right now where our defense is weak at the point of attack when Okoro sits and our spacing is abysmal even in the best of situations. LeBron does alleviate a lot of creation pressure on Garland, Sexton, and the should be returning around that time anyway Rubio. He does bring some great things on offense. This would also stress the defense a lot. Allen/Mobley will have to clean up a lot of mistakes when LeBron is in LeCoast mode during the regular season and early playoff games. The triple towers approach made up for Sexland on D because we had 3 active swarming, long defenders. But with Bron, you lose that key cog.
 
Can’t control what he does in any case, but there is a big difference between being on a team with unproven young talent and a team with budding stars. I think if LeBron comes back it’d be to win and he would likely welcome having a young core to carry the load all year for him to close in the playoffs.

LeBron did not seem to impede Kyrie’s development and, if anything, tried to push him to be a better passer. And I’m not sure LeBron has ever played with a pure point guard on Garland’s level outside of the Olympics and frankly I’d love to see it.
 
It would be absolutely hilarious to see LeBron James spotting up on the wing to watch Garland dance with the ball and wait for a kickout pass that may or may not come. I'm sure he'd be THRILLED with a role like that.

Maybe Bron can ask Lauri for a few pointers. LOL

On a more serious note... I really hope this LBJ crap doesn't hijack the Cavs discussion when training camp approaches. We already have one major distraction with Sexton's neverending contract saga.
 
Last edited:
It would be absolutely hilarious to see LeBron James spotting up on the wing to watch Garland dance with the ball and wait for a kickout pass that may or may not come. I'm sure he'd be THRILLED with a role like that.

Maybe Bron can ask Lauri for a few pointers. LOL

On a more serious note... I really hope this LBJ crap doesn't hijack the Cavs discussion when training camp approaches. We already have one major distraction with Sexton's neverending contract saga.
He didn’t seem to have an issue letting Irving “dance with the ball” even though there was a far lesser chance of a pass coming than there would be with Garland.

LeBron is at his most efficient as a cutter. I’ve been dying to see that aspect of his game utilized more throughout his career, but he’s never had a PG worth deferring to.
 
I also do not think adding LeBron suddenly elevates us to championship contention. Again, lets say we trade Lauri, Caris, Okoro and Cedi/Windler to make this work with the cap.

We would never trade four players for a half-season of LeBron. Love would be going to the Lakers to make the money work along with a young player (Okoro) or a draft pick to make it worth it to them.
 
LeBron did not seem to impede Kyrie’s development and, if anything, tried to push him to be a better passer. And I’m not sure LeBron has ever played with a pure point guard on Garland’s level outside of the Olympics and frankly I’d love to see it.
I would say what LeBron playing alongside Kyrie is absolute best example of James fitting in with another elite player. Frankly, I thought LBJ-Ky fit together offensively better than LBJ-Wade ever did. Now, LBJ-Wade were able to overcome it to some extent because they were just that great, but then again, those teams probably should have won a title every year they were together in their primes considering that was pre-Super Team era and no one even came close to their level of talent.

I honestly wouldn't be that worried about Garland. DG is as lethal as an off-ball dynamo coming around screens and running the offense, not necessarily as the initiator all the time, but as the first or second pass into a set. They could actually be an incredible pairing considering the collective basketball IQ.

I'd be more concerned about Mobley's growth. LeBron really likes to operate from the high block as a kind of point-PF. That is an area of the floor I really want to see Mobley take control of and Mobley has some natural secondary playmaking instincts I'd love to explore. Since he and LBJ occupy similar areas of the floor, does it stunt Mobley's growth? Move him somewhere else where he's not as comfortable and/or doesn't fit in as well with this core?

We saw it with prime Kevin Love, who was a phenomenal player. We can say what we want about how his attributes helped the Cavs more than his stats showed and I'll stand by that, but there's no doubt his natural instincts on the floor were blunted and he had to search in order to carve out a role next to LeBron. It didn't come naturally.

Chris Bosh, same thing on offense.

So it's easy to get consumed with who has the ball and whether or not LeBron and Garland will get in each other's way... our bigs worry me more.
 
I also do not think adding LeBron suddenly elevates us to championship contention. Again, lets say we trade Lauri, Caris, Okoro and Cedi/Windler to make this work with the cap.

We would never trade four players for a half-season of LeBron. Love would be going to the Lakers to make the money work along with a young player (Okoro) or a draft pick to make it worth it to them.
Love/Okoro/1st is something you may be able to talk me into from an asset perspective but I am still a bit worried about how this affects our long term trajectory.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Rubber Rim Job Podcast Video

Episode 3-14: "Time for Playoff Vengeance on Mickey"

Rubber Rim Job Podcast Spotify

Episode 3:14: " Time for Playoff Vengeance on Mickey."
Top