2020 NBA Draft

[Ozone]

Watching film......he CLEARLY has better than above average IQ. To me, even someone who is very skeptical of him as a prospect, the selling point is most certainly the feel and awareness with which he plays. He's smart, he sees the floor well, he makes the right BBall plays and his IQ tends to really show up as a team defender. I think he will struggle in isolation but his tape does show he's already a very good team defender, which to me, is the pillar of a high BBall IQ player. Understanding rotations, where help needs to be, how to help, when to gamble, etc. .....guys with average or above average IQ just do not do those things consistently. His basketball IQ is what allows much of his projection IMO......because you'd imagine a player that plays with as much awareness and smarts has a chance to figure things out as he steps up in competition.

Never suggested he doesn't have a high iq. That was the point though;even with his obvious bbiq he cannot get it done against better competition. He is a project who may or may not be any better than he is right now for the most part which is not worth a high lottery pick even in this weak draft, because he lacks the elite athleticism and length of others who will be there and so even though he is a smart player that can help any team with the little things, I don't beleive he will have the physical ability to even use his tools

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

Ozone, I have no problem with opinion, but it seems like every opinion of yours is a fact, even when you lack any solid information or footage to go by. HONESTLY, have you watched one game of his? a real, full game?

 

[Cavatt]

Ozone, I have no problem with opinion, but it seems like every opinion of yours is a fact, even when you lack any solid information or footage to go by. HONESTLY, have you watched one game of his? a real, full game?

I haven't seen a Euroleague game, so I am going on what I have seen in the Israeli league. I am the first to admit it can be really hard to evaluate guys agianst really bad competition. I have seen Division 2 guys I thought were awesome who couldn't sniff a summer league roster.

Still, isn't he playing barely any minutes in Euroleague? Former NBA players are ahead of him.

Even the best Euro scouts admit that evaluating young Euro talent is so difficult because they place such value on vet players, and don't let young players play through mistakes. The fact he is getting 10min a game is actually good right?

 

[Ozone]

Ozone, I have no problem with opinion, but it seems like every opinion of yours is a fact, even when you lack any solid information or footage to go by. HONESTLY, have you watched one game of his? a real, full game?

Never have much interest in those leagues, so not much full game witnessing no.
I am not suggesting I am an authority on Avdija, but it's obvious too me he lacks NBA length for a pf and doesn't have the explosive game I'd expect out of a high lottery option to make up for a lack of length.
It's 2 huge red flags imo and thats just defensive.
Can you trade down and get him if he is that high on the board? idk
On the offensive side anyone can see "if" his athleticism were NBA level he would easily be a solid role player starter maybe more in time,provided adding strength could allow him to bang down low or maybe you think his iq will help get and 1 ops in a league that allows less contact and favors offensive players. Too me lacking average lateral quickness by all accounts on any tape I have seen added to the length and explosivness issues and backed up by some souting reports despite good positional awareness seems to be something that will hurt him on both sides.
Maybe if they can figure out how to draft Avdija and Hayes together they can compliment eachother.
One never goes left t,he other never goes right. What is with these INTL players lol

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

I haven't seen a Euroleague game, so I am going on what I have seen in the Israeli league. I am the first to admit it can be really hard to evaluate guys agianst really bad competition. I have seen Division 2 guys I thought were awesome who couldn't sniff a summer league roster.

Still, isn't he playing barely any minutes in Euroleague? Former NBA players are ahead of him.

Even the best Euro scouts admit that evaluating young Euro talent is so difficult because they place such value on vet players, and don't let young players play through mistakes. The fact he is getting 10min a game is actually good right?

Whether it's good or not is subjective as it depends who you want to compare it to. It's bad when you compare him to players like Luka Doncic, Pau Gasol, Ginobili. But the minutes played or lack of production in the EL compared to the Israel league is not a detriment or a way to project how he is going to look in the NBA..not in year 1 later. It is not an Hezonja case, or a Bender case. Bender fucking sucked on both levels for example.

Cedi Osman at the same age in the EL scored 6 pts a game and was mainly a catch and shoot 3pt corner 'specialist'. Bogdan Bogdanovic at age 20 was scoring 5 points a game. At his peak, he was considered one of the best players in EL. It takes time to mature and get a proper role in the EL. What was even Porzingis? a total unknown.

What I'm saying is that you don't predict NBA success via looking at EL stats unless you are transcendent like Doncic, Arvydas Sabonis, Paul Gasol. And in my experience, usually guys get better in the NBA and not vice versa, unless you get totally overwhelmed by NBA athletes and you can't adjust, and from my observation Deni Avdija does not lack athleticism for his size at all. To predict success you need to look at other things rather than raw stats.

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

Never have much interest in those leagues, so not much full game witnessing no.
I am not suggesting I am an authority on Avdija, but it's obvious too me he lacks NBA length for a pf and doesn't have the explosive game I'd expect out of a high lottery option to make up for a lack of length.
It's 2 huge red flags imo and thats just defensive.
Can you trade down and get him if he is that high on the board? idk
On the offensive side anyone can see "if" his athleticism were NBA level he would easily be a solid role player starter maybe more in time,provided adding strength could allow him to bang down low or maybe you think his iq will help get and 1 ops in a league that allows less contact and favors offensive players. Too me lacking average lateral quickness by all accounts on any tape I have seen added to the length and explosivness issues and backed up by some souting reports despite good positional awareness seems to be something that will hurt him on both sides.
Maybe if they can figure out how to draft Avdija and Hayes together they can compliment eachother.
One never goes left t,he other never goes right. What is with these INTL players lol

When I look at him I see above average athleticism, certainly for his size? how do you get the lack of athleticism?
And as far as length, he has excellent standing reach. Perhaps he lacks wingspan, but it's apparent that his SR is excellent as he blocks shots pretty easily without much elevation.

 

[Ozone]

When I look at him I see above average athleticism, certainly for his size? how do you get the lack of athleticism?
And as far as length, he has excellent standing reach. Perhaps he lacks wingspan, but it's apparent that his SR is excellent as he blocks shots pretty easily without much elevation.

Here are some links to just one game showing examples of average at best athletcism and length:

 

[Muffinalt]

Looks and runs like christiano ronaldo

Oh yeah, spot on! I couldn't think who he reminded me of, but they do run really similar.

Could be no correlation but I think its a good sign for good levels of speed and deceleration. Change of pace and shiftiness are athelticism too. Would be handy, especially if he ends up a full time Pf.

 

[Cavatt]

Whether it's good or not is subjective as it depends who you want to compare it to. It's bad when you compare him to players like Luka Doncic, Pau Gasol, Ginobili. But the minutes played or lack of production in the EL compared to the Israel league. It is not an Hezonja case, or a Bender case. Bender fucking sucked on both levels for example.

Cedi Osman at the same age in the EL scored 6 pts a game and was mainly a catch and shoot 3pt corner 'specialist'. Bogdan Bogdanovic at age 20 was scoring 5 points a game. At his peak, he was considered one of the best players in EL. It takes time to mature and get a proper role in the EL. What was even Porzingis? a total unknown.

What I'm saying is that you don't predict NBA success via looking at EL stats unless you are transcendent like Doncic, Arvydas Sabonis, Paul Gasol. And in my experience, usually guys get better in the NBA and not vice versa, unless you get totally overwhelmed by NBA athletes and you can't adjust, and from my observation Deni Avdija does not lack athleticism for his size at all. To predict success you need to look at other things rather than raw stats.

Yeah this is good context.

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

Here are some links to just one game showing examples of average at best athletcism and length:

This game is so old.
Why not judge by the latest games?

 

[cabs]

When I look at him I see above average athleticism, certainly for his size? how do you get the lack of athleticism?
And as far as length, he has excellent standing reach. Perhaps he lacks wingspan, but it's apparent that his SR is excellent as he blocks shots pretty easily without much elevation.

do you see him having the mobility to defend the best SF's in the league or do you see him defending bigs?

*genuine question not some hidden point being made

 

[kingdragon2]

I'd love to see some sort of competition study done on this........I'm not sure such a study is possible but I think it it something that is said a lot but is likely not true.

I'm willing to concede this point on Euroleague......that it is 100% better competition....but these random foreign leagues? Guys from the MAC go over and make 10-15 year careers in them.

I don't think leagues like the ones Deni is putting up numbers in are much better than elite HS competition. Maybe that is harsh.....but someone like Edwards would score 40 points a game in those Israeli leagues.

• James Young washed out of the NBA in 3-4 years and is putting up 21 a game in that league, as the leagues leading scorer.
• Marcus Foster was undrafted and has yet to play an NBA regular season game and is scoring 20.
• Justin Tillman was undrafted and a G-League also ran and is scoring 20.
• TJ Williams was undrafted and a G-League also ran and is scoring 19.

Guys who were averaging 6-8 points in the G-League are league leading scorers in the IPBL.

I really don't like Deni at all.....He has an interesting frame.....but his success is so predicated on shooting IMO and all the shooting markers tend to suggest he's not necessarily a projectable one. His per 36 numbers in Euroleague are also just not good. He doesn't draw fouls at a high rate, he doesn't shoot well from the FT line, not much of an assist generator, mediocre 1.6 STL + BLK per 36....just all the red flags are there against high competition. I'd take him as a project, with a mid to late 1st but taking him in the top 10, even in a draft like this, is just a reach to me. If we are talking top 5-6, yikes.

 

[kingdragon2]

"I don't think leagues like the ones Deni is putting up numbers in are much better than elite HS competition"

That's certainly not true!

He is playing in a top 5 euroleague team with adults and former nba player like amare stoudamire, tarik black, quincy acy, omry casspi and more, and getting plenty of playing minutes as a 19 years old.

The top teams in the league are champions league and eurocap level teams.

Against players his age or 2-3 years older than him, he won European national championships as an mvp!

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

do you see him having the mobility to defend the best SF's in the league or do you see him defending bigs?

*genuine question not some hidden point being made

I see him as interchangable at the 3/4 spot depending on matchups. I do think he will be strong enough to defend most 4's. I think he won't have issues defending his position at all. I'm not worried about his lateral quickness.

 

[Nathan S]

Last regular season game against #2 Hapoel Jerusalem today. Always a good time.