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2020 Off-Season Rumors/News

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Pretty much this. When those cheapsakes thought it ok to trade away 2 Cy Young pitchers was the day I decided I would never spend another cent on the Indians till they were gone. They are in fact cheap and try nickle and diming both their fan base and players. And when they do have a winning team they will stop at nothing to let those players walk or trade them for prospects that MAY be good down the road. Why the hell would any casual fan waste both their time and money on something that you know they won't support financially. Could you imagine if Gund/Gilbert did the same thing with LBJ when his extension came up? I get it the economics of baseball are beyond terrible, and it badly needs a salary cap. But, that's not my damn problem it's theirs and if they can't figure it out sell the damn team, it's as simple as that. Fuck the Dolans! they have cost the team multiple chances at a chip and they NEVER be able build any kind of sustainable success because they're greedy bastard, someone mention marketing and was correct the optic and the reality are they need to sale the team to you know... someone that can actually afford.
Unless I completely read this wrong and missed extreme sarcasm, can you please add not posting about the team ever again, too? Thanks, bye.
 
Pretty much this. When those cheapsakes thought it ok to trade away 2 Cy Young pitchers was the day I decided I would never spend another cent on the Indians till they were gone. They are in fact cheap and try nickle and diming both their fan base and players. And when they do have a winning team they will stop at nothing to let those players walk or trade them for prospects that MAY be good down the road. Why the hell would any casual fan waste both their time and money on something that you know they won't support financially. Could you imagine if Gund/Gilbert did the same thing with LBJ when his extension came up? I get it the economics of baseball are beyond terrible, and it badly needs a salary cap. But, that's not my damn problem it's theirs and if they can't figure it out sell the damn team, it's as simple as that. Fuck the Dolans! they have cost the team multiple chances at a chip and they NEVER be able build any kind of sustainable success because they're greedy bastard, someone mention marketing and was correct the optic and the reality are they need to sale the team to you know... someone that can actually afford.
Congratulations.

This might be one of the worst posts I’ve ever seen.
 
Pretty much this. When those cheapsakes thought it ok to trade away 2 Cy Young pitchers was the day I decided I would never spend another cent on the Indians till they were gone. They are in fact cheap and try nickle and diming both their fan base and players. And when they do have a winning team they will stop at nothing to let those players walk or trade them for prospects that MAY be good down the road. Why the hell would any casual fan waste both their time and money on something that you know they won't support financially. Could you imagine if Gund/Gilbert did the same thing with LBJ when his extension came up? I get it the economics of baseball are beyond terrible, and it badly needs a salary cap. But, that's not my damn problem it's theirs and if they can't figure it out sell the damn team, it's as simple as that. Fuck the Dolans! they have cost the team multiple chances at a chip and they NEVER be able build any kind of sustainable success because they're greedy bastard, someone mention marketing and was correct the optic and the reality are they need to sale the team to you know... someone that can actually afford.

This is...fucking wild.

Art.
 
Pretty much this. When those cheapsakes thought it ok to trade away 2 Cy Young pitchers was the day I decided I would never spend another cent on the Indians till they were gone. They are in fact cheap and try nickle and diming both their fan base and players. And when they do have a winning team they will stop at nothing to let those players walk or trade them for prospects that MAY be good down the road. Why the hell would any casual fan waste both their time and money on something that you know they won't support financially. Could you imagine if Gund/Gilbert did the same thing with LBJ when his extension came up? I get it the economics of baseball are beyond terrible, and it badly needs a salary cap. But, that's not my damn problem it's theirs and if they can't figure it out sell the damn team, it's as simple as that. Fuck the Dolans! they have cost the team multiple chances at a chip and they NEVER be able build any kind of sustainable success because they're greedy bastard, someone mention marketing and was correct the optic and the reality are they need to sale the team to you know... someone that can actually afford.

So a winning team for almost a decade isn’t sustainable success? If that isn’t then what is?
 
Enough back and forth about "true fandom" & team support or lack thereof. Let's talk Tribe.

The source of the frustration for those who follow the Indians for many years lies in the feeling that it repeatedly seems as though we are one or two pieces from truly getting the job done. When this happens after enough years repeatedly, that's where this notion of being too miserly to make it happen comes about.

Glad that the Clippers will be a blast to watch down here with all the talent coming through that will be bouncing up and down I-71 this season.
 
Pretty much this. When those cheapsakes thought it ok to trade away 2 Cy Young pitchers was the day I decided I would never spend another cent on the Indians till they were gone. They are in fact cheap and try nickle and diming both their fan base and players. And when they do have a winning team they will stop at nothing to let those players walk or trade them for prospects that MAY be good down the road. Why the hell would any casual fan waste both their time and money on something that you know they won't support financially. Could you imagine if Gund/Gilbert did the same thing with LBJ when his extension came up? I get it the economics of baseball are beyond terrible, and it badly needs a salary cap. But, that's not my damn problem it's theirs and if they can't figure it out sell the damn team, it's as simple as that. Fuck the Dolans! they have cost the team multiple chances at a chip and they NEVER be able build any kind of sustainable success because they're greedy bastard, someone mention marketing and was correct the optic and the reality are they need to sale the team to you know... someone that can actually afford.

If someone is willing to buy this team, and spend the amount of money on it each year that you demand, it is much more likely that the team will be moved to a different city.

And we won't get a replacement team. That'd be it for MLB in Cleveland.
 
I'm quoting this specific line first because it frames the rest of your post.
I get it the economics of baseball are beyond terrible, and it badly needs a salary cap.
We can all agree on this. The MLBPA has far too much control, and the lack of an aggressive salary cap has made the financial playing field in the sport uneven. However, under that financial restraint, the Indians have been one of the most innovative organizations in baseball. From the way our front office has identified MLB-level talent, all the way down to the way we're currently investing in Latin America, we have been one of the most progressive and forward-thinking organizations in the sport when it comes to identifying ways to acquire talent that isn't valued properly by the market.

That being said, let's get into the rest of the pile:

Pretty much this. When those cheapsakes thought it ok to trade away 2 Cy Young pitchers
  1. Since you understand the economics of baseball, you do obviously understand that the Indians would not have been able to re-sign CC Sabathia when he hit free agency. Correct? Based upon that knowledge, you're claiming the optimal choice is to lose him for nothing, rather than trade him and get value in return. Can you defend this line of reasoning?
  2. The exact same line of questioning for Cliff Lee. Why do you feel the correct choice is to lose the player for nothing, rather than getting value in return?
  3. Why do you feel the need to sling mud and name call in your opening? When you open by calling owners "cheapsakes" (you did mean "cheapskates," right?) you look like an overly emotional child.
was the day I decided I would never spend another cent on the Indians till they were gone.

Either you're inflicting self-harm (denying yourself something you enjoy--going to a baseball game) or you never enjoyed going to a baseball game to begin with. Which one is it?

They are in fact cheap and try nickle and diming both their fan base and players.
Since you're stating that these things are facts, can you provide examples? Current ownership has spent more money than the previous owners. I wouldn't call a $140 million payroll in this market "cheap," and the fact that Progressive Field has incredibly affordable tickets with fantastic amenities doesn't sound like "nickle and diming."

And when they do have a winning team they will stop at nothing to let those players walk or trade them
You understand this is just untrue--right? To say that ownership "will stop at nothing" is just being disingenuous. In the modern era, we have tried to aggressively extend every player we could. It kept around MVP and Cy Young-level talents like Kluber and Jose Ramirez. It's kept Cookie here. I'm hard pressed to find a time where we actively wanted a valued player to "walk."

for prospects that MAY be good down the road.
I really like this point. Do you remember 2002? The Indians traded their best pitcher, Bartolo Colon, away because he was going to be an impending free agent. We traded him for PROSPECTS of all things! Oh the humanity! Do you know who we received? Grady Sizemore, Brandon Phillips... and Cliff Lee. If we hadn't established a mold of trading top-level players for value rather than letting them walk, we wouldn't have the top-level players that you're upset we traded.

Oh, and the Cliff Lee trade netted us, among others, Carlos Carrasco. We turned a few months of Bartolo Colon into Cliff Lee and Carlos Carrasco. That's amazing, and definitely a strategy that we should continue to employ--not ridicule.

Why the hell would any casual fan waste both their time and money on something that you know they won't support financially.
I'm going to even give you the part where "you know they won't support financially" (which is false). A person should spend time and money doing things they enjoy. If you don't enjoy going to a baseball game, then don't. It's really that simple. I am not really one for labeling things, but I guess if you don't enjoy going to baseball games, it would be fair to question the "fan" label.

Could you imagine if Gund/Gilbert did the same thing with LBJ when his extension came up?
The financial situations are completely different. No owner would have refused to give LeBron a max contract. His value was far, far greater than the maximum contract the NBA allowed.

But, that's not my damn problem it's theirs
(Just to keep context, this was in reference to the financial situation of baseball that I moved to the front of this response)
The financial situation in baseball is everyone's problem (if you view it as a problem). If fans voice concern about the product, that's a great way to effect positive change. Also, are you trying to say that the Indians ownership is responsible for the economic climate in baseball? Because, they are just one of 30 MLB ownership groups, and also have no control over the MLBPA, who is the larger problem here.

and if they can't figure it out sell the damn team, it's as simple as that.
Can you clarify the precedent for"it" here? What do you expect Indians ownership to figure out? Also, no, it's not "as simple as that" ultimatum you provided. That's silly.

Fuck the Dolans!
Again, I would recommend taking a more rational approach rather than throwing an emotional tantrum.

they have cost the team multiple chances at a chip
I would argue that our ability to put a quality front office together has allowed the Indians to compete for championships in this era. There aren't many markets as small as ours that can say they've had the same continued success we've had. But, can you elaborate on specifically how ownership has cost the team multiple championships? Unless your spelling was intentional and you mean they don't allow chips in the clubhouse or something, in which case that's news to me.

and they NEVER be able build any kind of sustainable success
We've had 7 winning seasons in a row, and over the last 4 years, only the Dodgers and Astros have won more games than we have.

because they're greedy bastard, someone mention marketing and was correct the optic and the reality are they need to sale the team to you know... someone that can actually afford.
Is there anything coherent here, or is it just the end of your tantrum? If there's a point to be made, let me know and I'll address it.[/QUOTE]
 
Pretty much this. When those cheapsakes thought it ok to trade away 2 Cy Young pitchers was the day I decided I would never spend another cent on the Indians till they were gone. They are in fact cheap and try nickle and diming both their fan base and players. And when they do have a winning team they will stop at nothing to let those players walk or trade them for prospects that MAY be good down the road. Why the hell would any casual fan waste both their time and money on something that you know they won't support financially. Could you imagine if Gund/Gilbert did the same thing with LBJ when his extension came up? I get it the economics of baseball are beyond terrible, and it badly needs a salary cap. But, that's not my damn problem it's theirs and if they can't figure it out sell the damn team, it's as simple as that. Fuck the Dolans! they have cost the team multiple chances at a chip and they NEVER be able build any kind of sustainable success because they're greedy bastard, someone mention marketing and was correct the optic and the reality are they need to sale the team to you know... someone that can actually afford.

I love when the basis for hating the Dolans are two trades the team made that ended up being wildly successful in the end. 10 years of Brantley for a half season of Sabathia (who was going to NY regardless) and 10 seasons and counting of Carlos Carrasco for Cliff Lee (who was traded twice more in the 12 months that followed). Sure, it didn't look good at the time, but to have the knowledge we do now and still talk about those deals in a negative way???
 
I'm quoting this specific line first because it frames the rest of your post.

We can all agree on this. The MLBPA has far too much control, and the lack of an aggressive salary cap has made the financial playing field in the sport uneven. However, under that financial restraint, the Indians have been one of the most innovative organizations in baseball. From the way our front office has identified MLB-level talent, all the way down to the way we're currently investing in Latin America, we have been one of the most progressive and forward-thinking organizations in the sport when it comes to identifying ways to acquire talent that isn't valued properly by the market.

That being said, let's get into the rest of the pile:


  1. Since you understand the economics of baseball, you do obviously understand that the Indians would not have been able to re-sign CC Sabathia when he hit free agency. Correct? Based upon that knowledge, you're claiming the optimal choice is to lose him for nothing, rather than trade him and get value in return. Can you defend this line of reasoning?
  2. The exact same line of questioning for Cliff Lee. Why do you feel the correct choice is to lose the player for nothing, rather than getting value in return?
  3. Why do you feel the need to sling mud and name call in your opening? When you open by calling owners "cheapsakes" (you did mean "cheapskates," right?) you look like an overly emotional child.


Either you're inflicting self-harm (denying yourself something you enjoy--going to a baseball game) or you never enjoyed going to a baseball game to begin with. Which one is it?


Since you're stating that these things are facts, can you provide examples? Current ownership has spent more money than the previous owners. I wouldn't call a $140 million payroll in this market "cheap," and the fact that Progressive Field has incredibly affordable tickets with fantastic amenities doesn't sound like "nickle and diming."


You understand this is just untrue--right? To say that ownership "will stop at nothing" is just being disingenuous. In the modern era, we have tried to aggressively extend every player we could. It kept around MVP and Cy Young-level talents like Kluber and Jose Ramirez. It's kept Cookie here. I'm hard pressed to find a time where we actively wanted a valued player to "walk."


I really like this point. Do you remember 2002? The Indians traded their best pitcher, Bartolo Colon, away because he was going to be an impending free agent. We traded him for PROSPECTS of all things! Oh the humanity! Do you know who we received? Grady Sizemore, Brandon Phillips... and Cliff Lee. If we hadn't established a mold of trading top-level players for value rather than letting them walk, we wouldn't have the top-level players that you're upset we traded.

Oh, and the Cliff Lee trade netted us, among others, Carlos Carrasco. We turned a few months of Bartolo Colon into Cliff Lee and Carlos Carrasco. That's amazing, and definitely a strategy that we should continue to employ--not ridicule.


I'm going to even give you the part where "you know they won't support financially" (which is false). A person should spend time and money doing things they enjoy. If you don't enjoy going to a baseball game, then don't. It's really that simple. I am not really one for labeling things, but I guess if you don't enjoy going to baseball games, it would be fair to question the "fan" label.


The financial situations are completely different. No owner would have refused to give LeBron a max contract. His value was far, far greater than the maximum contract the NBA allowed.


(Just to keep context, this was in reference to the financial situation of baseball that I moved to the front of this response)
The financial situation in baseball is everyone's problem (if you view it as a problem). If fans voice concern about the product, that's a great way to effect positive change. Also, are you trying to say that the Indians ownership is responsible for the economic climate in baseball? Because, they are just one of 30 MLB ownership groups, and also have no control over the MLBPA, who is the larger problem here.


Can you clarify the precedent for"it" here? What do you expect Indians ownership to figure out? Also, no, it's not "as simple as that" ultimatum you provided. That's silly.


Again, I would recommend taking a more rational approach rather than throwing an emotional tantrum.


I would argue that our ability to put a quality front office together has allowed the Indians to compete for championships in this era. There aren't many markets as small as ours that can say they've had the same continued success we've had. But, can you elaborate on specifically how ownership has cost the team multiple championships? Unless your spelling was intentional and you mean they don't allow chips in the clubhouse or something, in which case that's news to me.


We've had 7 winning seasons in a row, and over the last 4 years, only the Dodgers and Astros have won more games than we have.


Is there anything coherent here, or is it just the end of your tantrum? If there's a point to be made, let me know and I'll address it.
[/QUOTE]
I'll will go into greater detail tomorrow or maybe over the weekend on your many point and I will flat out say you right in for the most part since you seem to be level head and not some Dolan shill. Would you agree with me the one of biggiest obstacles to the Indians winning a chip is the Dolans willing to spend. If Dan fucken Gilbert was the owner would they be in better much place? Answer the question honestly? We have a great front office but terrible owners and I can stress this cheap ownership. We have Francisco Lindor who is a generational type player but because they won't pay the man his gone as a casual fan this beyond frustrating. Why should me as casual fan put money in the team if they can't retain talent and are essentially a farm team for the Yankees. Casuals like me aren't going invest in something that ownership doesn't financially give a fuck. And the fucked up thing if they would just build a true winner and substain it while putting REAL money in then what many considers a pretender would look like a contender. Look at St Louis they put in more money year after year then the Indians. It's plain simple. If they they want more fans to come park spend real dough and stop nickle and diming. Like I said before I understand MLB is fucked and unless it changes cap/floor wise will go the way of the dodo once the TV contracts are up. The optics are the Dolans are cheap as shit, like seriously cheap whatever you craze homers think is not going to change a single one of minds. The city of Cleveland deserves much, much, better even an asshole like Marc Cuban would be leagues better then what current got. I have no idea why you defend these broke fucks but maybe you defend minimum wages I dunno. Get these sorry fucks out and get a new owner and if your ok with Indians being financial capped shame on you there's over 600 billionaires in US find one that's welling to spend to retain talent. The Indians will never win chip with these cheap ass muthsfuckers and that how most of northeast OHIO feels.
 
I'll will go into greater detail tomorrow or maybe over the weekend on your many point and I will flat out say you right in for the most part since you seem to be level head and not some Dolan shill. Would you agree with me the one of biggiest obstacles to the Indians winning a chip is the Dolans willing to spend. If Dan fucken Gilbert was the owner would they be in better much place? Answer the question honestly? We have a great front office but terrible owners and I can stress this cheap ownership. We have Francisco Lindor who is a generational type player but because they won't pay the man his gone as a casual fan this beyond frustrating. Why should me as casual fan put money in the team if they can't retain talent and are essentially a farm team for the Yankees. Casuals like me aren't going invest in something that ownership doesn't financially give a fuck. And the fucked up thing if they would just build a true winner and substain it while putting REAL money in then what many considers a pretender would look like a contender. Look at St Louis they put in more money year after year then the Indians. It's plain simple. If they they want more fans to come park spend real dough and stop nickle and diming. Like I said before I understand MLB is fucked and unless it changes cap/floor wise will go the way of the dodo once the TV contracts are up. The optics are the Dolans are cheap as shit, like seriously cheap whatever you craze homers think is not going to change a single one of minds. The city of Cleveland deserves much, much, better even an asshole like Marc Cuban would be leagues better then what current got. I have no idea why you defend these broke fucks but maybe you defend minimum wages I dunno. Get these sorry fucks out and get a new owner and if your ok with Indians being financial capped shame on you there's over 600 billionaires in US find one that's welling to spend to retain talent. The Indians will never win chip with these cheap ass muthsfuckers and that how most of northeast OHIO feels.

Gonna go out on a limb and say you're pretty upset about Wahoo as well?
 
I know someone else has said it before, but I cant help but think: what if the players got it done 2016? Or 2017? Both? This would change the perception drastically I imagine. Especially in baseball the margin is razor thin. Those teams were easily good enough to win and the players just flat out choked it away- not really Dolan’s fault, and I’m the furthest thing from a Dolan shill.

We’d probably all still be drunk from the celebration. I think that’s where a lot of the Indians angst comes from. Cavs got over the hump. The Browns haven’t been close in 30 years. The Indians, even in my 30 years of life, have come infuriatingly close many times. And they’ve had teams (2017) that didn’t come that close but were incredibly strong and lost to lesser teams. Odds would tell me the Tribe would breakthrough and win in one of these instances but they haven’t.

I get it, frankly. Separating the economics of baseball and Dolan and spending from the equation, I get the general frustration. A WS would honestly mean more to me than a Superbowl. Hopefully we all get to see one someday.
 
I'll will go into greater detail tomorrow or maybe over the weekend on your many point and I will flat out say you right in for the most part since you seem to be level head and not some Dolan shill. Would you agree with me the one of biggiest obstacles to the Indians winning a chip is the Dolans willing to spend. If Dan fucken Gilbert was the owner would they be in better much place? Answer the question honestly? We have a great front office but terrible owners and I can stress this cheap ownership. We have Francisco Lindor who is a generational type player but because they won't pay the man his gone as a casual fan this beyond frustrating. Why should me as casual fan put money in the team if they can't retain talent and are essentially a farm team for the Yankees. Casuals like me aren't going invest in something that ownership doesn't financially give a fuck. And the fucked up thing if they would just build a true winner and substain it while putting REAL money in then what many considers a pretender would look like a contender. Look at St Louis they put in more money year after year then the Indians. It's plain simple. If they they want more fans to come park spend real dough and stop nickle and diming. Like I said before I understand MLB is fucked and unless it changes cap/floor wise will go the way of the dodo once the TV contracts are up. The optics are the Dolans are cheap as shit, like seriously cheap whatever you craze homers think is not going to change a single one of minds. The city of Cleveland deserves much, much, better even an asshole like Marc Cuban would be leagues better then what current got. I have no idea why you defend these broke fucks but maybe you defend minimum wages I dunno. Get these sorry fucks out and get a new owner and if your ok with Indians being financial capped shame on you there's over 600 billionaires in US find one that's welling to spend to retain talent. The Indians will never win chip with these cheap ass muthsfuckers and that how most of northeast OHIO feels.
Were you drunk while writing this? It's an incoherent mess.
 

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