2021 Series #24 | Indians @ Twins | June 24-27, 2021

[DickyLeftridge]

Someone told you that correlation = bad! If you're looking for a fallacy here, that's it. I'm not trying to tell you that the correlative evidence that I've provided means that I've proved the underlying cause of the team's problems. That's what this "correlation vs. causation" fallacy means and why it's very obvious you have no grasp of the concept, beyond interjecting it into the discussion quite liberally. Your argumentative ceiling is (trash) memes, bub.

Here is a mindbender for you bub, very often in argument you cannot prove the underlying cause. And correlation is all that you have. So long as you're not trying to suggest one is the other (which, by the way, you may be), that's perfectly normal. Guess what? No one here is going to be able to prove the underlying cause of this team's defensive performance or the inability of our young players to take to playing multiple positions. We're going to be stuck with correlation, bub. Well, you won't. Because you haven't even cleared that bar and offered any evidence to show that our team's poor defensive performance is just an awe-shucks random coincidence.

That out of the way, if you'd like, I'll go and quote the series of posts made by you and others where the discussion first turned to personal attacks against me and present those to the mods, and then I'll likewise present my responses back to your posts. It's complete cringe-worthy that the two biggest offenders of first taking things personal in this thread are also the two biggest ninnies whining that they have been "personally attacked" in response.

Want to stick just to baseball? Me too. Leave out the "jackass" "troll" "idiot" and failed attempt at educating the board on your grasp of logic. Can't? Then neither will I. Your call.

 

[sportscoach]

All of this provided rational discourse for a cause for this performance drop. Do you even know what any of the terms you are using actually mean? Serious question. Put down the thesaurus for 15 seconds and listen to yourself.

I've debated the merits of my position across multiple pages now, providing specific examples backed by specific data. In response, you've abdicated your purportedly high standards and refused to offer any support for how shuffling the several named young players across several positions as they're breaking into the majors neither accounts for any of their struggles nor explains our poor team defense.

Someone told you that if you sprinkle enough vapid buzzwords like "rational discourse" and all of the Logical Argument 101 terms you can learn at a community college that you'll sound intelligent and won't actually have to engage in the discussion. I'm here to tell you that's not the case. And for free!

I respond in kind. You come at me with all these personal attacks because I hurt your feelings, I'll respond back similarly only better at it.

Perhaps I've offered evidence only of correlation. You, on the other hand, have offered evidence of nothing.

Dicky, one thing about AZ_ is the fact he is actually rarely wrong when it comes to baseball... He can have an a hole personality at times (we don't get along normally lol) but when he stays with baseball, you won't find another poster on any site that is more accurate...

Moving positions around doesn't have enough stats backing it up to say it hurts prospects development. Most prospects it actually allows them to move up since they don't stay at a blocked position... Mercado would have never gotten to the pros staying at SS...

Also you are forgetting about we lost 2020, so we lost time to develop guys at other positions... It was always in the plans to get someone right handed to play 1B since our 1B were lefties once Santana left. Francona (and Cash of the Rays, Maddon of the Angels does as well) like to be able to mix and match on the ballfield to get his best team possible. It was in the cards to get Naylor into RF from the get go of 21 especially since we signed Eddie...

We all knew Eddie, wasnt a good LF, anyone who knew scouting reports for HRam and Naylor knew they werent good OFs either, but Zimmer and Mercado didn't take CF so Amed went to CF which he had never played before... The biggest problem was Gimenez struggled at SS, Hernandez hasn't played a good 2B, JRam had some early season struggles as well... Then as Amed went back to SS, he isn't actually good there...

The issue isn't because we are moving players around, it's because the whole dang team wasn't playing good defense outside of catcher... We are negative at 2B, SS, CF and RF... If you are negative at 2B, SS and CF normally your defense is going to be bad... both our SS's that is their normal position, 2B as well, CF is because we have been playing non-CF/inexperienced OFs in CF all season until we called up Zimmer...

In actuality the issue isn't cause we are moving guys around, the issue is the veterans haven't been doing their jobs which magnifies the fact we have guys learning new positions...

 

[AZ_]

Perhaps I've offered evidence only of correlation. You, on the other hand, have offered evidence of nothing.

Pulling this out, because its important to explain this.

Yes, you have provided a fallacious argument. No doubt about that, the textbook definition of a fallacy.

I have not, nor do I need to prove that wrong. There is no value in appointing myself psychiatrist for players I've never met, fabricating a perception that they're uncomfortable playing multiple positions, and also fabricating that this is directly causing a negative effect on performance.


Doing so would make me full of shit, a bullshit artist.

Quite frankly, I don't believe in serving up bullshit like that as a replacement for logical discussion.

Baseball has an enormous amount of variability, blaming individual errors or negative offensive performance on psychological factors you made up, then demanding everyone else prove the fabrication wrong....is quite obviously bullshit.


You can bait, project and attack all you want, but its not going to make this argument any better.

Someone told you that correlation = bad! If you're looking for a fallacy here, that's it. I'm not trying to tell you that the correlative evidence that I've provided means that I've proved the underlying cause of the team's problems. That's what this "correlation vs. causation" fallacy means and why it's very obvious you have no grasp of the concept, beyond interjecting it into the discussion quite liberally. Your argumentative ceiling is (trash) memes, bub.

No, it means that you're unhappy that your fabricated belief that position flexibility is a negative has still not been proven.

Here is a mindbender for you bub, very often in argument you cannot prove the underlying cause. And correlation is all that you have. So long as you're not trying to suggest one is the other (which, by the way, you may be), that's perfectly normal. Guess what? No one here is going to be able to prove the underlying cause of this team's defensive performance or the inability of our young players to take to playing multiple positions. We're going to be stuck with correlation, bub. Well, you won't. Because you haven't even cleared that bar and offered any evidence to show that our team's poor defensive performance is just an awe-shucks random coincidence.

I don't need to prove an underlying cause of defensive miscues, other than pointing to the fact that none of these players are considered above average defensively.

Errors and miscommunication are going to happen, fabricating an underlying psychological cause and demanding everyone prove it wrong isn't an argument that I'm taking seriously, because the person making it is nowhere remotely qualified to do so.

That out of the way, if you'd like, I'll go and quote the series of posts made by you and others where the discussion first turned to personal attacks against me and present those to the mods, and then I'll likewise present my responses back to your posts. It's complete cringe-worthy that the two biggest offenders of first taking things personal in this thread are also the two biggest ninnies whining that they have been "personally attacked" in response.

Want to stick just to baseball? Me too. Leave out the "jackass" "troll" "idiot" and failed attempt at educating the board on your grasp of logic. Can't? Then neither will I. Your call.

I don't know if you know this, but I have never diverted from sticking to baseball.

I'm not pulling psychological factors and "underlying causes" for defensive miscues from my ass and trying to pass them off as an argument.

While obviously, its tiring to see moderators refuse to uphold the rules of this forum for some and not others, your obvious troll tactics here should be called out for what they are.

I'll likely continue calling out contrived, bad faith arguments in the future, too.

 

[TxBuckeye]

 

[DCTribefan]

How do you really feel, TxBuckeye?

 

[33Y0]

 

[TxBuckeye]

How do you really feel, TxBuckeye?

 

[Lee]

Yes, I do.

Correlation vs. Causation is actually a pretty simple concept, one which you're on the wrong side of.



That's not entirely true, you've claimed that it caused the performance drop, but have provided no sound logic for proving causation.

It's not about high standards, or any of the other personal attacks you're allowed by the mods to throw my way while attempting to avoid actually proving causation.

No, I haven't proved a negative, because as most people with an understanding of basic argumentation know....you cannot.

This is the AZ that gets you banned for some reason, but this is the AZ I love. You for sure won the argument, and have me laughing at some of responses while thinking if what you are saying is true.

I have no skin in the game as I come here to usually learn, but you have me convinced position doesnt do much to hitting.

Now some claimed Ahmed didnt hit well because he wasnt comfortable in center and now that he is back at SS he isnt hitting well. Do you believe this? You know I know stats, not baseball stats, but actual statistical stats, lol....so I already know it was a very small sample size and could just be a coincidence that the move to ss happened then he starting hitting but what is your opinion?

 

[Lee]

Is there a statistical significance behind the 139 emojis?

Did 138 not quite get your point across? 140 go to far?

What is the correlation between the 139 Emojis and what you were feeling?

 

[N7RobBob]

This is the AZ that gets you banned for some reason, but this is the AZ I love. You for sure won the argument, and have me laughing at some of responses while thinking if what you are saying is true.

I have no skin in the game as I come here to usually learn, but you have me convinced position doesnt do much to hitting.

Now some claimed Ahmed didnt hit well because he wasnt comfortable in center and now that he is back at SS he isnt hitting well. Do you believe this? You know I know stats, not baseball stats, but actual statistical stats, lol....so I already know it was a very small sample size and could just be a coincidence that the move to ss happened then he starting hitting but what is your opinion?

Other things that could be a factor would be the following: new team and new league. How many times have we seen players struggle at the plate when getting introduced to pitchers and ballparks that they aren't used to. I would think that those would be bigger factors than where one plays on the field.

 

[AZ_]

This is the AZ that gets you banned for some reason, but this is the AZ I love. You for sure won the argument, and have me laughing at some of responses while thinking if what you are saying is true.

I have no skin in the game as I come here to usually learn, but you have me convinced position doesnt do much to hitting.

Now some claimed Ahmed didnt hit well because he wasnt comfortable in center and now that he is back at SS he isnt hitting well. Do you believe this? You know I know stats, not baseball stats, but actual statistical stats, lol....so I already know it was a very small sample size and could just be a coincidence that the move to ss happened then he starting hitting but what is your opinion?

His splits between CF and SS aren't terribly different.

.656 OPS in CF in 15 games
.703 OPS at SS in 49 games

Sample size could explain the variability there as easily as anything else. Aside from that shaky first game or two out there, I thought Rosario began to handle himself well until it became obvious that Gimenez was overmatched at this level.

I'd have no problem sending him back out there again if Zimmer and Mercado do nothing.

 

[Obscured By Clouds]

His splits between CF and SS aren't terribly different.

.656 OPS in CF in 15 games
.703 OPS at SS in 49 games

Sample size could explain the variability there as easily as anything else. Aside from that shaky first game or two out there, I thought Rosario began to handle himself well until it became obvious that Gimenez was overmatched at this level.

I'd have no problem sending him back out there again if Zimmer and Mercado do nothing.

I'd point to his move to hitting 2nd as to when he took off

.319/.368/.438/.805 hitting 2nd over 36 games

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

I'd point to his move to hitting 2nd as to when he took off

.319/.368/.438/.805 hitting 2nd over 36 games

I'll also argue that position in the batting order makes little difference on an individual's performance.

But, I'd still put it ahead of where you play defensively in terms of impact.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

This shit is getting ridiculous. My internet is spotty this week on vacation so it is tough to moderate right now, but just off the top of my head, @Out of the Rafters at the Q and @DickyLeftridge needs to stow this crap ASAP. Rafters, you are not the self-appointed forum quality police, and Dicky, your underhanded baiting isn't helping. Put each other on ignore if you have to. Anyone else piling on to this on the margins on either side needs to back the fuck off as well. I will say that the more convoluted all the sniping back and forth gets, the more everyone involved in that mess will need to be sent on vacation. There are plenty of guys here who just want to discuss baseball, this B.S. is turning everyone off.

For those of you who are getting as sick of this as I am, there will be some changes being made in the not too distant future so that this stuff does not go on for as long as it has.

@Sebastian

 

[kriegs]

Ignore button is your friend folks, a huge improvement