2022 Minor League Thread

[Meatwad]

I did state my opinion.. and will continue to state it..

as far as the "tough guy" thing.. pffft...

You spent 3 or 4 or 5 posts throwing at shade at Bimbo's knowledge before you finally relented and gave an actual opinion on the catchers. I don't care about Bimbo, he can handle his own business, just don't be shocked when people respond negatively. No one thinks Bimbo is a god, but I do value his opinion. Would have been nice to read his take and then your take instead of all the bs in between.

We're all just nerds talking minor league tribe in February. Carry on. I'll just be reading.

 

[BimboColesHair]

Yeah, I don’t need anyone coming to my defense for someone who disagrees with me. That ain’t healthy for forum discussions.

But the condescension from @Gson seemed apparent to me and apparent to others and I don’t appreciate that…but again, I’m a big boy, I can take it. Been dealing with that shit for a decade here.

And I can’t state this enough. The original post I made was about catching depth in the organization and if I thought it was a concern. I said no, “defensively they can hang in the MLB right now” with regards to Lavastida and Naylor, just in case their depth gets tested.

I am not sure how that got misconstrued to me saying they are ready to be at the MLB level or full time MLB players. Never said that.

Argument still is that I believe, if needed, Lavastida or Naylor can hang defensively at the MLB level right now. No one will change my mind on that either. So let’s move along.

 

[Gson]

You spent 3 or 4 or 5 posts throwing at shade at Bimbo's knowledge before you finally relented and gave an actual opinion on the catchers. I don't care about Bimbo, he can handle his own business, just don't be shocked when people respond negatively. No one thinks Bimbo is a god, but I do value his opinion. Would have been nice to read his take and then your take instead of all the bs in between.

We're all just nerds talking minor league tribe in February. Carry on. I'll just be reading.

No shade..

No relenting..

...and my opinion has been stated in several forums, several ways.. and several days.. including this one...

Agree.. .the bs did get completely and unnecessarily heavy...

..read on, McDuff...

 

[MadThinker88]

FYI... Bleacher Report has published the 1st of the Farm System Rankings...


Impressive placement for the CLE club.. Now we wait to see how Fangraphs/ Baseball America and a few other places rank em....

 

[petes999]

FYI... Bleacher Report has published the 1st of the Farm System Rankings...


Impressive placement for the CLE club.. Now we wait to see how Fangraphs/ Baseball America and a few other places rank em....

#2 ain't bad at all ... Tampa list being #1 even after losing Franco to graduation just shows how deep their system is.

The other system that keeps on being up near the top (#5) is the Dodgers even after losing Ruiz and Gray.

 

[CDAV45]

Talent wise is it a reach to consider Tena on the same level as Rocchio? After comparing their numbers in Lake County a person could assume that Tena might be a better prospect. No wonder he gained a lot of FO fans throughout the league. Then when you consider what he did in the AZFL you realize you have another crazy good MIF prospect. This is just getting ridiculous with all this MIF talent. It just keeps piling up.

 

[CDAV45]

51. Daniel Espino, RHP, Cleveland Guardians​

Age: 21 | 6-2 | 205 pounds
Bats: Right | Throws: Right
Drafted: No. 24 in 2019

Previous ranking: Unranked

Espino was the 24th pick in 2019, part of a run of hard-throwing high school pitchers the Guardians took in 2018-19. He made his full-season debut in 2021, where he posted the highest strikeout rate (40.5 percent) of any pitcher who threw at least 75 innings at any level. Espino came into 2021 in better shape to get through a full season, and progressed over the course of the year as well, learning to use his fastball more effectively and seeing development on his offspeed stuff. He’s pitching more vertically now, going up with the four-seamer (which can touch 100) and staying behind the ball more, resulting in hitters missing the pitch more than they did even in high school. His slider projects to be plus, and has supplanted his curveball as his primary breaking pitch, while his average changeup has been good enough to help him dominate lefties as he was right-handed batters. Espino’s main issue now is command and control — he walked just over 10 percent of batters this year, but he’s also generally inefficient and has to work to generate some more weak contact rather than trying to finish every at bat with a strikeout. I doubt he’ll ever get to above-average command, but even average command with this stuff would make him a No. 2 starter.

So a 1st round SP with a 100 mph FB, an absolute filthy slider, and an average change up has the ceiling of a #2? He also didn't consider the mechanical changes that reduced his walks with his promotion. Since when is 2.9 BB9 not at least average command/control? This kid needs to be in the top 10 and anyone that doesn't see that needs to have their eyes checked.

 

[CDAV45]

...neither are legitimately ready or close to ready for MLB.. this comment is disingenuous...

The hell they aren't close. I'd argue that Lavastida would be an instant offensive upgrade at C and at the very least acceptable defensively. Naylor is ready defensively, but obviously stalled with the bat when promoted to Akron. We'll have to see how he rebounds, but seeing how his offensive profile was what made him attractive in the draft you would think that there is a good chance he significantly improves.

 

[CDAV45]

Yeah, I don’t need anyone coming to my defense for someone who disagrees with me. That ain’t healthy for forum discussions.

But the condescension from @Gson seemed apparent to me and apparent to others and I don’t appreciate that…but again, I’m a big boy, I can take it. Been dealing with that shit for a decade here.

And I can’t state this enough. The original post I made was about catching depth in the organization and if I thought it was a concern. I said no, “defensively they can hang in the MLB right now” with regards to Lavastida and Naylor, just in case their depth gets tested.

I am not sure how that got misconstrued to me saying they are ready to be at the MLB level or full time MLB players. Never said that.

Argument still is that I believe, if needed, Lavastida or Naylor can hang defensively at the MLB level right now. No one will change my mind on that either. So let’s move along.

Not trying to defend or accuse you in any way, but instead to thank you for your insight and bringing it here to us. I certainly appreciate it and I seriously doubt many MLB teams' forums are as fortunate to inside info. Give us what you can, when you can, but please keep your ass out of the hot seat.

 

[Gson]

The hell they aren't close. I'd argue that Lavastida would be an instant offensive upgrade at C and at the very least acceptable defensively. Naylor is ready defensively, but obviously stalled with the bat when promoted to Akron. We'll have to see how he rebounds, but seeing how his offensive profile was what made him attractive in the draft you would think that there is a good chance he significantly improves.

smh... one guy has about a hundred or so plate appearances above A+ ball.. the other hit a buck ninety at AA.. and these are the guys who are ML ready?.. both have solid catching skills..but both need further development in game calling, blocking, receiving, framing and footwork.. of the two.. Lavas is closer to being ML ready, defensively.. but he's not ready, otherwise....

Both of them are not "close".. 2023.. mid season/september call up.. maybe..

 

[petes999]

Talent wise is it a reach to consider Tena on the same level as Rocchio? After comparing their numbers in Lake County a person could assume that Tena might be a better prospect. No wonder he gained a lot of FO fans throughout the league. Then when you consider what he did in the AZFL you realize you have another crazy good MIF prospect. This is just getting ridiculous with all this MIF talent. It just keeps piling up.

When you look at the numbers, I still give it to Rocchio ...

1) Think people would agree that Rocchio is a defensive star ... Tena has improved and got that Gold Glove but there was a question mark there for most scouts, concerns which may have (probably) diminished with a year off. Their 2nd base fielding was the same. At SS, Tena had .988 vs Rocchio .966 in LC but .975 in Akron. Thus, it could just be how a person gives out errors based on actual range (and expectations).

2) Indians promoted Rocchio over Tena by more than a month (early Aug/mid Sept)

3) Rocchio had a tough May (.207) trying to knock off the rust which dragged down his numbers but then had a good June/July .300/.890ish Tena for same months was .290/.740ish but then exploded in Aug with .294/.937 with 7 HR. So, if the HR continue, he may get this soon enough but from # was, Rochhio was already in Akron trying to adjust. But for year, Tena had 16 HR (exc 1 in AZFL) which surprised us but Rocchio had 15. And, if you go back to 2019, Rocchio had 5 HR in MV in 19 while Tena had 1 in Arz.

The key is how will that .387 in fall league continue in Akron this year. Yet, isn't this the time though to sell Tena high as 70% of prospects fail? (sarcasm)

 

[MadThinker88]

ICYMI: BA released its 2022 MLB Organizational Talent Rankings on Weds 2/2/22.

Right now I am uncovering the entire list (instead of just waiting for the prospect handbook). I am still needing to locate the rankings for 8 clubs (SD, SF, Colorado, Milwaukee, LA Angels, Oakland, Houston & St. Louis).

Top 3 are Seattle, Tampa, Pittsburgh
#30 are the ChiSox.

CLE was listed at #12

Here are the AL Central Rankings for comparison/ discussion:
KC: 5
Detroit: 6
CLE: 12
Minnesota: 14
ChiSox: 30

 

[Gson]

When you look at the numbers, I still give it to Rocchio ...

1) Think people would agree that Rocchio is a defensive star ... Tena has improved and got that Gold Glove but there was a question mark there for most scouts, concerns which may have (probably) diminished with a year off. Their 2nd base fielding was the same. At SS, Tena had .988 vs Rocchio .966 in LC but .975 in Akron. Thus, it could just be how a person gives out errors based on actual range (and expectations).

2) Indians promoted Rocchio over Tena by more than a month (early Aug/mid Sept)

3) Rocchio had a tough May (.207) trying to knock off the rust which dragged down his numbers but then had a good June/July .300/.890ish Tena for same months was .290/.740ish but then exploded in Aug with .294/.937 with 7 HR. So, if the HR continue, he may get this soon enough but from # was, Rochhio was already in Akron trying to adjust. But for year, Tena had 16 HR (exc 1 in AZFL) which surprised us but Rocchio had 15. And, if you go back to 2019, Rocchio had 5 HR in MV in 19 while Tena had 1 in Arz.

The key is how will that .387 in fall league continue in Akron this year. Yet, isn't this the time though to sell Tena high as 70% of prospects fail? (sarcasm)

The intangibles favor Rocchio as well.. seldom do you see a young 20 something with the maturity and baseball knowledge (baseball IQ) that Rocchio possesses.. He's truly a remarkable talent.. and a reasonable explanation for why he can play damn near anywhere on the diamond with average to well above average ability.. It wouldn't be a huge surprise if the Guardians take a review of thier middle infielders w/ an eye toward moving one or more to the OF.. with Rocchio at the top of that list.. Not surprisingly, he's at the top of the middle infielder list as well...

thoughts?..

 

[petes999]

The intangibles favor Rocchio as well.. sldom do you see a young 20 something with the maturity and baseball knowledge (baseball IQ) that Rocchio possesses.. He's truly a remarkable talent.. and a reasonable explanation for why he can play damn near anywhere on the diamond with average to well above average ability.. It wouldn't be a huge surprise if the Guardians take a review of thier middle infielders w/ an eye toward moving one or more to the OF.. with Rocchio at the top of that list.. Not surprisingly, he's at the top of the middle infielder list as well...

thoughts?..

I do think that you move one of your MIFs to the outfield. If Rocchio is your strongest SS, then you definitely leave him there (don't rob Peter to pay Paul). With 3 really good SS, Tena, Arias and Rocchio, it is just an internal judgement but have read Arias maybe the best though. Yet, all three played 79-82 games at SS, so no hints there. The key though will be Ramirez. If traded, you buy your OF/CF (along with C and SP) there. If not traded, then you have 4 top-10 prospects in Gimenez, Arias, Rocchio and Tena battling over 2nd and SS where one or two lossing out - and then shifted to OF. If Ramirez is traded, 3 of 4 slide into 2nd/SS/3rd and one or two will most likely fail (based on odds) - so no issues with over abundance until Martinez group is ready.

My first player moved is Freeman (and Miller). Freeman is the MLB ready by 2nd half. Because he won't be your best SS, I think that is the most obvious to try to move first (as your 2nd baseman in future can and thus will/should be able to slide back to SS if prolong injury or on off days - with Utility guy of Chang/Freeman/Miller then playing 2nd). I don't know if Freeman can play CF (50 run yet we tried Kipnis there) but he can at least play LF and RF till Valera is ready (okay in right with 50 arm).

Only if Ramirez is signed do you try a Rocchio in OF, that is if Arias is your best SS. Rocchio 60 run is best (along with Gimenez). Being without depth perception, that is the most critical ability in my mind- someone who can read the ball off the bat and angles quickly. Anyone can do this but who is better (for OF that no one has played) is only trial and error. The first/drop step is just a learned habit that anyone really motivated can pick up quickly. But, as you said with Rocchio high IQ, how much of hearing crack of bat or knowing who is up at bat will help him more than others to know before he even sees it where the ball is probably going?

 

[CATS44]

Why convert MIFs to see if they can play the outfield when you can simply trade one for a proven MLB OF?

********

Kip was an OF who was converted to a 2B. He was put back in the OF in an emergency. Looking back, it didn't work. He was awful.

**********

The world is round. (Sarcasm) The Holocaust never happened. (Sarcasm) 70% of top 100 prospects fail to produce at the MLB level. (Sarcasm)

*************

Freeman isn't a concensus top 50, because he doesn't take walks, he doesn't have any power, he has a slight frame that doesn't project much, and he has had two shoulder surgeries within three years.

It's the last part that is esp sobering.

*********

I like most....not all....of our upper level prospects, and taken as a whole, they are something to be excited about. But individually, you have to have a balanced outlook, knowing that most of them won't amount to much more than Jason Donald or Andy Marte...or Bradley Zimmer.

You also have to look at the entire list of MLB prospects to get an idea of where our top ten stand in comparison.

One...of many....example is fangraphs end of year list. (Which will change somewhat) Espino is ranked 50th, not bad. But 15 pitchers are ranked above him. Rocchio is listed as our best MIF prospect at #58. Fourteen MIFs are listed above him.

At the same age and level as Rocchio, Gimenez was ranked 52nd. At the same age and level, Amed was ranked 3rd.