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2022 Off-season Thread - The Future is Bright

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Alright, lets break this down a bit. Your prediction of how every other team does in the East seems highly optimistic while your read of the Cavs is really pessimistic. That already is a pretty bad start, but lets look at the numbers from this season first.

The Cavs won 44 games this year, ergo they tied for 7th most wins in the East. That is a top 8 record. And while wins are the ultimate metric, there are other things we can look at for how good or bad a team was. PDIFF would have the Cavs as the 6th best team in the East this year. Cavs are 13th in the league and 6th in the East by adjusted net rating. So, all the math says the Cavaliers were in fact one of the 8 best teams in the East and top 15 in the league.

But they are in the lottery and lost in the play-in, you say, clearly they are not a playoff team. Regardless of how you feel about the format, this is what happens in a single elimination format. Luck matters more than relative talent difference. We see this in the NCAA tournament every year. But, based on the regular season, the Cavs are ALREADY a playoff team.

Now, lets talk about the rest of the East.

Milwaukee is probably still going to be a championship caliber team next year and will likely be better than us. I won't argue that one. I do think we showed we can play them very tough and could give them issues in a playoff series.

Boston is also probably going to be be better than us next year. Their star duo of Jay and Jay is very solid and they have a strong defense built on Marcus Smart at PoA and Timelord in the back. However, their depth is utter trash. When a team needs to rely on Payton Pritchard for minutes, they are vulnerable. PP is around the same caliber player as Stevens. Other depth pieces like Nesmith are worse than Cedi. So yes, Boston's top end is good, but they are very very beatable.

Philly is actually questionable. Embiid will continue to be an absolute monster but beyond that? Harden's age is showing. Did you know he was in the middle of his worst rim finishing season since he was a rookie? If he can't get his bullshit superstar calls, Harden is barely better than a Dennis Schroeder. Beyond that, PHI gave up a ton of depth and good role players in that trade (Seth most notably). They are also beatable.

Miami might be the top seed this year, but thats almost entirely because Spo is a wizard. Their roster has a lot of wholes since it relies on an aging Lowry and Tucker to hold down the D. Herro and Bam are their only young talents. Bam is awesome, but Herro is a glorified Jordan Clarkson. And we know Jimmy has been raising some hell recently over there. Might he want out this off-season? Not sure. From a talent perspective we are actually quite close to these guys already.

BKN is huge boom or bust team. KD hasn't been able to stay healthy for a few years now. You never know which Kyrie you are going to get. So now you are left relying on Ben Simmons growing a pair of balls to be there, because the rest of your team after those 3 is a whole lot of yikes. Is anyone that scared of a Patty/Seth/Brown/Kessler/Drummond lineup? Shouldn't be. If they have good health, they will be a competitive team in the East. If not, no chance.

Atlanta is not a better team than us. Trae is great but what do they have after that? Love me some John Collins but he would be the fourth best guy on our team. As is, we nearly beat them with a hobbled Allen and LeVert. I am not scared of this team and neither should you be.

Chicago is a paper tiger. DDR having a career at 32 is a great story, but he won't be able to repeat this performance. Lavine is a great scorer but thats it. Without the Lockdown Bros at full power, their defense is terrible since their anchor is a taller Kevin Love (Vuc). You look at how the Bulls have played this year and their tumble was as bad as ours. They survived because DDR saved their asses with like 4 buzzer beaters in a week. You can't give them a pass for dealing with injuries and not look at how other teams were affected.

Toronto is the other relevant team. They are young, have a great coach in Nurse, but their roster is even more of a wtf than ours. They start 4 wings and a guard and their bench is 3.5 centers. Nurse is making it work, but they are a team that has a lot of solid guys more than any great guys, tho I do believe in my boys Scottie and OG. I think they will be about as good as us next year.

Charlotte is another young team but their roster construction is really flawed. They have no defensive pieces besides Scary Terry and Melo and their defensive anchor is a 6'8 sieve. They can score but they cannot defend a lick. We project better than them.

Finally, lets look at the Cleveland Cavaliers. A team that was projected to win around 25 games this year. They nearly doubled that win projection. They had a undersized back court with tons of questions, no real wings, and a weird shaped roster. Their most interesting players are a third year guard who just over 100 games played in the last 3 years since he left high-school, a rookie big, and a center who was a throwaway in the Harden trade. The rest of their roster included offensively limited wings, a tall bigman converted into a wing, Cedi, the corpse of Kevin Love who looked like a potential locker room issue, and a guy who got dumped by the hapless Twolves for cap space. The one bright spot was a high scoring, high efficiency guard who had a questionable impact on the team game.

So, what happened? They lost their high scoring guard for the season less than 15 games into the year. They lost their backup point guard within 2 months (which greatly understates his impact on the floor). They could not stay healthy as every important rotation player not named Kevin Love missed time. When COVID ran rampant over the NBA in December, the Cavs were among the 3 teams worst hit in terms of missed games. At the deadline, they traded some picks and the expiring for a scoring wing...who promptly got injured and never developed a proper rhythm by the end of the year. They lost their best big wing defender for the season shortly after the all-star break. The best version of their starting 5 envisioned at the trade deadline finally manifested...in the 2nd round of the play-in on the last night of their season.

We also saw their third year point guard develop from an interesting prospect into a bonafide all-star and top 12 offensive player in the NBA. We saw that rookie bigman turn out to be the best defensive rookie bigman since Tim Duncan. We saw the throwaway center turn into an All-star himself and become the NBA's 2nd best rim protector. We saw a gigantic tall ball lineup that countered the NBA's small ball obsession. We saw Kevin Love revive his career as a shooting/rebounding specialist and the best sixth man in the NBA. We saw this team vastly exceed expectations and become one of the best stories in one of the wildest NBA seasons.

You are completely ignoring everything the Cavs accomplished this year. They outperformed all expectations and overcame some horrific injury luck. They were a fun and engaging team to watch all season even when we saw minutes from Tim Frazier, Denzel Valentine, Justin Andersen, and Tacko Fall. And you know what? They will only get better. Our starting lineup day 1 was all under 25. We have three allstar or better level guys who will all improve. We have a 14th pick to do something with. Collin Sexton and Dean Wade will come back. Koby will make other moves to shore up the roster. Calling this team a lottery team is some fucking bullshit.

The off-season can change a lot. Teams will decide to blow it up. Players will move. Other players will work on their games and improve. Old dudes will get older. Its impossible to say the exact composition of opening day rosters, but the Cavs will be on the rise next season.

I’m not ignoring anything. As things stand today, the Cavs are the 9th team in the East. The Cavs are a lottery team. Full stop. That’s not bullshit.

6 teams are locks. The next four are play in teams. Brooklyn likely takes a top 6 spot next year. If you are penciling in the Cavs to the top six, well you may have the same disappointment as you did last night if you penciled them in to 8.

The Cavs are a lottery team until they aren’t. That’s the cold hard fact.
 
I’m not ignoring anything. As things stand today, the Cavs are the 9th team in the East. The Cavs are a lottery team. Full stop. That’s not bullshit.

6 teams are locks. The next four are play in teams. Brooklyn likely takes a top 6 spot next year. If you are penciling in the Cavs to the top six, well you may have the same disappointment as you did last night if you penciled them in to 8.

The Cavs are a lottery team until they aren’t. That’s the cold hard fact.
I already went into great detail as to why the Cavs are likely to be a top 8 team or even better next year. They were one this year. If you don't want to engage with that, then what is your reasoning that the Cavs are going to be bad next year?

Others have raised issues with why the play in format is potentially problematic. I disagree, but will point you to them for why there are some flaws with it.

We lost the play-in and so we have a lottery pick. We clearly showed over the course of 82 games that we are one of the 8 best teams in the East and 16 best in the league. I already quoted the stats for it in my post. There is a big difference between a team that is hapless and directionless in the lottery like the Kings or Rockets and a team like the Cavs that got screwed by injuries and bad luck. If you can't see the difference between that, then there is little point in continuing this discussion.
 
I don't know why people keep throwing Sexton's name in trades. They can't trade him. He's not under contract anymore. Maybe a sign and trade is in the cards but that all depends on dollars and also if Sexton wants to sign with a team over the cap. Look at the return the Pels got for Lonzo Ball last summer in a s&t (filler contracts and a 2nd round pick).

The Lonzo Ball trade was an absolute steal and Griff deservedly gets a lot of shit for it. If you look at the Lauri S+T -- the Blazers got a high level role player and the Bulls got a 1st rounder. I think we could expect a bit better return for Sexton than Lauri.
 
I already went into great detail as to why the Cavs are likely to be a top 8 team or even better next year. They were one this year. If you don't want to engage with that, then what is your reasoning that the Cavs are going to be bad next year?

Others have raised issues with why the play in format is potentially problematic. I disagree, but will point you to them for why there are some flaws with it.

We lost the play-in and so we have a lottery pick. We clearly showed over the course of 82 games that we are one of the 8 best teams in the East and 16 best in the league. I already quoted the stats for it in my post. There is a big difference between a team that is hapless and directionless in the lottery like the Kings or Rockets and a team like the Cavs that got screwed by injuries and bad luck. If you can't see the difference between that, then there is little point in continuing this discussion.

The Cavs were the 9th team this year. They lost the play in for the 8 seed.

They are a lottery team until they prove otherwise. That’s how it works. It’s hard to make the top 6 next year. So you are back in the play in. Then it’s 50/50. I think Atlanta is better as they were an East finalist last year. Cavs just got housed by them at home.

Reset your expectations. Cavs are a lotto team that is 0-2 in play in games. Maybe they take the next step but maybe they regress. You can make a case for both. They won’t catch anyone by surprise next year.
 
The Cavs were the 9th team this year. They lost the play in for the 8 seed.

They are a lottery team until they prove otherwise. That’s how it works. It’s hard to make the top 6 next year. So you are back in the play in. Then it’s 50/50. I think Atlanta is better as they were an East finalist last year. Cavs just got housed by them at home.

Reset your expectations. Cavs are a lotto team that is 0-2 in play in games. Maybe they take the next step but maybe they regress. You can make a case for both. They won’t catch anyone by surprise next year.
Your sole argument is a statement of the final standings. This is overly reductive. I am interested in the underlying causes and discussed those in detail already. If you don't want to engage with a more nuanced take thats fine. You aren't engaging on a relevant playing field. There is a lot of context you are missing if you simply look at the standings.
 
A couple points about Okoro, in a game where we got outrebounded 42-36, he was third on the roster with 5 rebounds in only 21 minutes. He also had 6 points on three FGAs, which while perhaps is not good offense, is very efficient offense.

He's on a rookie contract, he's only 21-years old, and about 30% of the guys who will be drafted in June will be older than him. These get him off the roster takes are dumb. There will be a long list of NBA teams willing to help the Cavs out on that front if that's what they decide to do.

Now, I don't know that he, LeVert, or Sexton should start going forward. The Cavs have a decision to make in terms of Mobley's development and spacing. Do you want Mobley developing a 12-20 foot jump shot, or do you want him on the floor with Lauri, Garland, and a shooter at 2 so he can go to work in the paint? The Cavs asked a lot of a seven foot rookie by asking him to go to work with four defenders in the paint. The reality is that if you can't space the floor, it really doesn't matter what plays you'd like to run to get people open, because the execution of those plays is going to be a really tough slog.
 
Your sole argument is a statement of the final standings. This is overly reductive. I am interested in the underlying causes and discussed those in detail already. If you don't want to engage with a more nuanced take thats fine. You aren't engaging on a relevant playing field. There is a lot of context you are missing if you simply look at the standings.

There is no need to discuss hypotheticals. We can reassess in preseason but as it stands now, good chance we are in the play in next year. Season is over so not gonna do what ifs for the off-season. Cavs are a lottery team until they aren’t.
 
There is no need to discuss hypotheticals. We can reassess in preseason but as it stands now, good chance we are in the play in next year. Season is over so not gonna do what ifs for the off-season. Cavs are a lottery team until they aren’t.
I dont get this logic at all but do what you will. All of this is meaningless without context, which you seem to want to ignore. And frankly, you are projecting next season as if it is a hard reset on this season with no change in team rosters, player skills, or injuries. That is not how any of this works.
 
I dont get this logic at all but do what you will. All of this is meaningless without context, which you seem to want to ignore. And frankly, you are projecting next season as if it is a hard reset on this season with no change in team rosters, player skills, or injuries. That is not how any of this works.

I’ve clearly laid out the top 5.teams next year.

Miami, Brooklyn, Boston, Philly, Milwaukee.

That leaves 5 teams, the Cavs being one, fighting for the lash spot. So 4/5 chance we are in the play in as things stand today.

I am not saying that can’t change. Of course we will see how the off-season goes. But I can recall a “most competitive sweep ever” by the Pistons in 2018 and they were back in the lottery the next year. The Cavs have a lot of work ahead of them. They need a wing, they need a backup PG, they need a better coach, and they need to avoid injuries.
 
I wouldn't say LeVert has no floor vision. He actually is pretty good at finding the open man. The problem is he has no focus to his offensive game. He has no clue where his best shots come from. He just seems to try to get himself open and takes the shot, no matter where on the floor it is.
LaVert is what he is….a playground baller. JBB doesn’t run plays for him. It’s like JBB thinks he’s Mike Brown with LeBron James and says “Give LaVert the ball and let him make something happen”
 
The Lonzo Ball trade was an absolute steal and Griff deservedly gets a lot of shit for it. If you look at the Lauri S+T -- the Blazers got a high level role player and the Bulls got a 1st rounder. I think we could expect a bit better return for Sexton than Lauri.
Sexton missed basically the entire season. I'm actually very doubtful Cavs could get a Lauri type return in a s&t. Sexton needs to agree to a team, they need to pay him and give up assets? We will see.. The Bulls got both Derozan and Ball for very little in s&t's last summer. The easier route would be to combine Okoro + lottery pick or LeVert + lottery pick in a trade since they are under contract. Plus I'm biased at this point. Seen enough of Okoro and I don't think LeVert has the basketball IQ.
 
LaVert is what he is….a playground baller. JBB doesn’t run plays for him. It’s like JBB thinks he’s Mike Brown with LeBron James and says “Give LaVert the ball and let him make something happen”
The game plan last night, which worked very well in the first half, was make Trae defend. I've got no problem with get Trae on the ball defending as a game plan. The Hawks wanted to hide him and the Cavs didn't let them, at least not initially.
 
I’ve clearly laid out the top 5.teams next year.

Miami, Brooklyn, Boston, Philly, Milwaukee.

That leaves 5 teams, the Cavs being one, fighting for the lash spot. So 4/5 chance we are in the play in as things stand today.

I am not saying that can’t change. Of course we will see how the off-season goes. But I can recall a “most competitive sweep ever” by the Pistons in 2018 and they were back in the lottery the next year. The Cavs have a lot of work ahead of them. They need a wing, they need a backup PG, they need a better coach, and they need to avoid injuries.
No one is disagreeing that the Cavs have work to do. I think you outlined their biggest offseason needs right here.

On the other hand, I already wrote my piece on why I dont think there are 5 clear locks the way you seem to think. You can refer to that post.

And this Cavs team is in a much different place than the 2018 Pistons. That was a team that had been floundering as a borderline playoff team for a few years, burned the bank for a last push with Blake, and barely scrapped into the playoffs. The Cavs are a rising team with young, developing talent that was playing on a 50 win pace with our core healthy. We are closer to a 2011 OKC or 2018 Nuggets. You keep underselling what the Cavs have accomplished this year by reducing their season to "another lottery outing"
 
I’ve clearly laid out the top 5.teams next year.

Miami, Brooklyn, Boston, Philly, Milwaukee.

That leaves 5 teams, the Cavs being one, fighting for the lash spot. So 4/5 chance we are in the play in as things stand today.

I am not saying that can’t change. Of course we will see how the off-season goes. But I can recall a “most competitive sweep ever” by the Pistons in 2018 and they were back in the lottery the next year. The Cavs have a lot of work ahead of them. They need a wing, they need a backup PG, they need a better coach, and they need to avoid injuries.
Until we lost JA and Mobley for extended time we were in the game for the 5th and 6th spots and only two games out of 4th. This is why I said we need this lottery pick to improve this team. If we can add a big SG (pure shooter) or a legit 6’6-6’7 wing player that can shoot I believe we move ahead of Philly and Miami.
 
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