2023-24 Season | Game #70 | Cavs @ Timberwolves | March 22, 2024 | 8:00 p.m.

[CavsKermit]

The Cavs are 7-9 in games Garland plays that Mitchell doesn't. That's a 43% winning percentage.

The 76ers are 11-17 in games Maxey plays that Embiid doesn't. That's a 39% winning percentage.

I don't see enough of a difference here to continue harping this same bolded point. I also don't see anyone saying, "injuries don't matter, only the team's record with that player leading the charge position." Can you point me to that?

I'll be curious to see what this comparison looks like as the Cavs' sample size grows with Mitchell out.

As far as individual stats are concerned, Maxey blows Garland out of the water this season. He's putting up 26 points per game, averaging the exact same number of assists as Garland, however, he's turning the ball over nearly half as often as Darius. His efg% is 1 point lower, likely because Darius has slightly more 3 point volume on the same shooting percentage.

To say that you'd currently take Garland without question is denying the facts at hand in favor of subjectivity that lacks substance.

I can run down the individual stats for Desmond Bane too (the Grizzlies are 14-26 when he plays, fwiw), but he's statistically the best two-way player of the 3. He left my mind when I listed guys to compare Darius to the other day, but that's a guy I'd take over Darius on this Cavs team without thinking twice. Perfect blend of need and skillset. A Mitchell/Bane tandem would give teams absolute fits on both ends of the court.

Maxey is requiring A LOT of attempts (20 pg) to get to 26 points per game, they're not winning with Maxey playing that way, and Maxey currently has Tobias Harris/Buddy Heild available to help keep defenses honest. If Embiid comes back healthy for the playoffs, Maxey won't be averaging 20 shots pg.

Bane can't run an offense, create his own offense, or break down an opposing defense off the dribble. He's basically a 3&D guy who's defense is actually problematic against quicker guards as he's top heavy. We're seeing what it looks like when he doesn't have a legitimate PG to stir the drink. I'm not at all convinced he'd pair better with Mitchell in the playoffs as Mitchell would be facing the same type of defensive pressure Garland is, maybe even worse, and LeVert would still be the only secondary creator available.

 

[2 For The Brew]

Maxey is requiring A LOT of attempts (20 pg) to get to 26 points per game, they're not winning with Maxey playing that way, and Maxey currently has Tobias Harris/Buddy Heild available to help keep defenses honest. If Embiid comes back healthy for the playoffs, Maxey won't be averaging 20 shots pg.

This is incorrect. Maxey was scoring just as much prior to Embiid's injury. He was getting a ton of shots in the first half of the 2nd and 4th quarters when Embiid sat after playing the entire 1st and 3rd quarters. Maxey had 28 FGA’s against us in November and also had a 50 point game.

Tobias Harris has dropped off considerably with Embiid out, more so than Maxey.

Tyrese has had a similar problem as Darius - with the team’s best players out (and others at times; Philly had a rash of injuries) it puts more pressure on the PG and now leading scorer.

I‘ve seen a lot of Maxey in person this season and watch all Cavaliers games. Maxey has had a far better season. He’s stronger and more explosive to the rim and better in transition. He also was voted onto the all star team.

 

[CavsKermit]

Comparing Kyrie in year 2 to Garland in year 5.

Priceless.

Go ahead and compare Garland in year 2 to Kyrie in year 2.

See how that one works out lol.

Kyrie has played alongside Lebron, Tatum, Brown, Durant, Harden, and now Luka. Save his time here with LBJ, he hasn't won anything in the playoffs., In fact, when Durant , Harden, and Luka were injured, those Kyrie lead teams were plenty meh. It's hardly been a year 2 issue.

 

[bushwick_bill]

@CavsKermit

Kyrie has played alongside Lebron, Tatum, Brown, Durant, Harden, and now Luka. Save his time here with LBJ, he hasn't won anything in the playoffs., In fact, when Durant , Harden, and Luka were injured, those Kyrie lead teams were plenty meh. It's hardly been a year 2 issue.

CavsKermit said:
Before LBJ came back, what was the Cavs record with Kyrie as the lead dog.

bushwick_bill said:
They were not very good at 33 and 49.

@Rich said:
Comparing Kyrie in year 2 to Garland in year 5.

Priceless.

Go ahead and compare Garland in year 2 to Kyrie in year 2.

See how that one works out lol.

It was actually his third year, Kyrie had a 33 and 49 record. Cleveland and DG were 44 and 38, were they not?
Want to look at stats as well? I am in no way saying DG is the better player but DG was winning in his third year and an All Star. Lol

You are a smart guy you can look up each players stats and compare for yourself.

Each player signed their max the summer after their third season. So Koby should not have offered DG a max that summer?

Kyrie Irving averaged 20.7 points, 5.8 assists and 3.7 rebounds in 181 games in his first 3 seasons

Kyrie Irving averaged 21.0 points, 5.7 assists and 3.5 rebounds in 256 games in his first 4 seasons.

Darius Garland averaged 17.4 points, 6.3 assists and 2.6 rebounds in 181 games in his first 3 seasons.

Darius Garland averaged 18.5 points, 6.7 assists and 2.6 rebounds in 250 games in his first 4 seasons.

Garland Year 3 Cleveland Record 44-38 pre-don received his max that summer

Darius Garland averaged 21.7 points, 8.6 assists and 3.3 rebounds in 68 games in 2021-22. He was selected to play in his first All-Star game.

Garland Year 4 Cleveland Record 51-31 with Don - some said DG was an All-Star Snub last year

Darius Garland averaged 21.6 points, 7.8 assists and 2.7 rebounds in 69 games in 2022-23.

Kyrie Year 3 pre-LBJ Cleveland Record 33-49 received his max that summer

Kyrie Irving averaged 20.8 points, 6.1 assists and 3.6 rebounds in 71 games in 2013-14. He was selected to play in his second All-Star games.

Kyrie Year 4 Cleveland Record 53-29 and at one point was 19-20 before they ripped off 12 straight wins.

Kyrie Irving averaged 21.7 points, 5.2 assists and 3.2 rebounds in 75 games in 2014-15. He was selected to play in his third All-Star games.

Darius Garland Year 5

Darius Garland has averaged 18.7 points, 6.3 assists and 2.5 rebounds in 46 games this season.

Kyrie Irving Year 5

Kyrie Irving averaged 19.6 points, 4.7 assists and 3.0 rebounds in 53 games in 2015-16. He won his first NBA championship.

@Rich I hope someone gives you a hug today...

 

[Cassity14]

Bane can't run an offense, create his own offense, or break down an opposing defense off the dribble. He's basically a 3&D guy who's defense is actually problematic against quicker guards as he's top heavy. We're seeing what it looks like when he doesn't have a legitimate PG to stir the drink. I'm not at all convinced he'd pair better with Mitchell in the playoffs as Mitchell would be facing the same type of defensive pressure Garland is, maybe even worse, and LeVert would still be the only secondary creator available.

The mental gymnastics here are certainly something.

Desmond Bane can't create his own offense, yet he's having a great offensive season without his starting point guard? Can you explain how that makes sense to me? He's more efficient offensively than both Garland and Maxey, shooting at a higher clip and scoring 23.8 points per game.

Desmond Bane can't run an offense, yet as "basically a 3&D guy," is averaging exactly 1 less assist per game than the dynamic playmaker that is Darius Garland? With an even worse team around him?

Facts clearly don't matter to you. I get it, you're a big fan of Darius Garland. That doesn't mean you have to be blind to others' success or make things up as you go along.

 

[Cassity14]

@bushwick_bill do you believe the raw stats (as in points per game) from 10 years ago equate to those today?

With scoring higher than it's ever been and offenses more efficient than they've ever been, I don't think it's much of a dunk to say that Garland has similar stats to Irving as they began their careers.

Kyrie Irving also came back in year 5 from a knee injury that he suffered in the Finals the year prior. He was a shell of himself that regular season, but luckily for us, ramped up and looked healthy by the second half and into the playoffs. Garland also has had to fight an injury, however, unlike Irving, he began the season healthy and didn't look much better than he does now.

I certainly hope that this year is an outlier in Garland's production much like 15-16 was for Irving. The difference, however, is that Irving was the best rookie of his class right away. Darius Garland was one of the worst players in the league as a rookie.

 

[bushwick_bill]

@bushwick_bill do you believe the raw stats (as in points per game) from 10 years ago equate to those today?

With scoring higher than it's ever been and offenses more efficient than they've ever been, I don't think it's much of a dunk to say that Garland has similar stats to Irving as they began their careers.

Kyrie Irving also came back in year 5 from a knee injury that he suffered in the Finals the year prior. He was a shell of himself that regular season, but luckily for us, ramped up and looked healthy by the second half and into the playoffs. Garland also has had to fight an injury, however, unlike Irving, he began the season healthy and didn't look much better than he does now.

I certainly hope that this year is an outlier in Garland's production much like 15-16 was for Irving. The difference, however, is that Irving was the best rookie of his class right away. Darius Garland was one of the worst players in the league as a rookie.

DG last year was top 10 for scoring for point guards and top 7 I believe for assists total overall. Two seasons ago he was the 5th leader scorer for point guards and 6th overall in the league with assists, off the top of my head. Both years the team was winning as well. However some want to spin it he’s produced the past two years.
And he’s also put up similar numbers as Kyrie in years 3,4 and 5. He’s not a stale bag of Doritos and he’s also only the 30th highest paid player in the league… We are a small market team as well.

I think DG averaged 24 points a game this December for that six game span.

 

[CavsKermit]

The mental gymnastics here are certainly something.

Desmond Bane can't create his own offense, yet he's having a great offensive season without his starting point guard? Can you explain how that makes sense to me? He's more efficient offensively than both Garland and Maxey, shooting at a higher clip and scoring 23.8 points per game.

Desmond Bane can't run an offense, yet as "basically a 3&D guy," is averaging exactly 1 less assist per game than the dynamic playmaker that is Darius Garland? With an even worse team around him?

Facts clearly don't matter to you. I get it, you're a big fan of Darius Garland. That doesn't mean you have to be blind to others' success or make things up as you go along.

Bane is averaging 8.6 3pa per game this season with Morant out. That's roughly half his FGAs in a record year for him in terms of FGAs. He's also more than an assist below Garland and that's with JJJ averaging a career high in FGAs (which is good for at least three of those assists). Nothing I've said is inaccurate. Pime Klay Thompson was an all star, but the drop off for the Warriors in terms of how the offense functioned was steep when Curry missed time. Bane will be lucky to *carry* the Grizzlies to 30 wins this season and that's with having JJJ available to him. As good as Allen is, JJJ is several tiers above him offensively.

I'm not the one engaged in mental gymnastics here. If you're telling me that you'll be satisfied with Garland scoring more while taking more shots, even if the Cavs without three starters and Wade continue to take Ls, okay? Because that's exactly what's been happening in Philly and Memphis and really all you can point to is more ppg off of more fga per game.

 

[CavsKermit]

This is incorrect. Maxey was scoring just as much prior to Embiid's injury. He was getting a ton of shots in the first half of the 2nd and 4th quarters when Embiid sat after playing the entire 1st and 3rd quarters. Maxey had 28 FGA’s against us in November and also had a 50 point game.

Tobias Harris has dropped off considerably with Embiid out, more so than Maxey.

Tyrese has had a similar problem as Darius - with the team’s best players out (and others at times; Philly had a rash of injuries) it puts more pressure on the PG and now leading scorer.

I‘ve seen a lot of Maxey in person this season and watch all Cavaliers games. Maxey has had a far better season. He’s stronger and more explosive to the rim and better in transition. He also was voted onto the all star team.

What's incorrect? That Maxey is having to take 20 shots a game to get to 26 points? That's literally the one fact that's not subject to argument. He's averaging 20 shots a game this season. You can look it up.

If you want to nevertheless that fact, as you attempt to do, have at it, but Maxey is taking a whole bunch of shots.

 

[2 For The Brew]

What's incorrect? That Maxey is having to take 20 shots a game to get to 26 points? That's literally the one fact that's not subject to argument. He's averaging 20 shots a game this season. You can look it up.

If you want to nevertheless that fact, as you attempt to do, have at it, but Maxey is taking a whole bunch of shots.

What’s incorrect is you claim that Maxey won’t get FGAs when Embiid gets back. That’s not supported by experience earlier this season.

 

[Cassity14]

Bane is averaging 8.6 3pa per game this season with Morant out. That's roughly half his FGAs in a record year for him in terms of FGAs.

This is quite literally what we all want to see Garland doing.

Yes, I want to see him scoring more and taking more shots. As you have pointed out ad nauseum, he's not surrounded by multi-faceted threats, so he should be the primary scorer every single night.

The Cavs aren't exactly running through opponents right now. They're losing plenty as-is.