Amed Rosario - Play or Trade?

[PIP]

Trade ?

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

I don't know if it would be torpedoing the next seven years, but I agree that now is the best time to find out about other options. Arias needs to play and get consistent AB. It's that simple.

We're simply not going to get much for Amed alone. Boston is probably the best bet right now and they sure as hell don't have much to offer. Maybe package Amed with Plesac and Straw to get Houck and a prospect or 2 in return?

If we don't see Arias or Rocchio get consistent MLB ABs this year, I believe their career trajectories will be forever altered.

Whether it's from the purely developmental side, or the "This organization is jerking me around" one, it's going to do damage.

 

[CDAV45]

If we don't see Arias or Rocchio get consistent MLB ABs this year, I believe their career trajectories will be forever altered.

Whether it's from the purely developmental side, or the "This organization is jerking me around" one, it's going to do damage.

You're probably right. If Arias isn't going to get consistent AB and they're going with Amed I think it would be best to trade him while he still has some value.

I find it hard to believe that they aren't going to give Arias the opportunity at this point.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

You're probably right. If Arias isn't going to get consistent AB and they're going with Amed I think it would be best to trade him while he still has some value.

I find it hard to believe that they aren't going to give Arias the opportunity at this point.

I agree.

I also find it hard to believe we find a suitor for Amed at this point.

I'm almost hoping for an injury at this point. I don't want to go 162 games of Amed at SS while Arias, Rocchio and Freeman wither on the vine.

 

[CATS44]

If Amed performs at a production and leadership level that helps to maintain our position as a contender, I dont care that the various prospects have their careers backed up.

And if the FO is concerned that the prospects careers will wither and their value decrease, it can trade some of them before that happens.

We can write in two players whose production is as close to a sure thing as possible in baseball....Jose and Amed. Everybody else has at least a small question mark beside his name. On a team as young as ours, certainty is a good thing.

Unless the return brings us a certain upgrade this season at another position, no way should Amed be traded. If it is so easy for a highly regarded prospect to just step in and be a quality SS at the MLB level, why is nearly every contender doing everything it can to avoid doing so?

Why isn't Antonettis phone ringing constantly with offers for Arias and Freeman, if they are automatically at least average MLB SSs right now?

Arias combined OPS last year was .705. Freemans was .707. Ameds two year OPS in Cleveland is .722. Assuming that either will be automatically an upgrade defensively, let alone enough to offset their lesser offense, is foolish.

 

[CDAV45]

If Amed performs at a production and leadership level that helps to maintain our position as a contender, I dont care that the various prospects have their careers backed up.

And if the FO is concerned that the prospects careers will wither and their value decrease, it can trade some of them before that happens.

We can write in two players whose production is as close to a sure thing as possible in baseball....Jose and Amed. Everybody else has at least a small question mark beside his name. On a team as young as ours, certainty is a good thing.

Unless the return brings us a certain upgrade this season at another position, no way should Amed be traded. If it is so easy for a highly regarded prospect to just step in and be a quality SS at the MLB level, why is nearly every contender doing everything it can to avoid doing so?

Why isn't Antonettis phone ringing constantly with offers for Arias and Freeman, if they are automatically at least average MLB SSs right now?

Arias combined OPS last year was .705. Freemans was .707. Ameds two year OPS in Cleveland is .722. Assuming that either will be automatically an upgrade defensively, let alone enough to offset their lesser offense, is foolish.

Amed is an average player.

Or they can just trade Amed who will be a FA soon and again, is an average player.

You can write in average for Amed because that's what he is.

He should have already been traded, but clearly there isn't much interest in him which should speak volumes to all of us.

How do you know Antonetti's phone isn't ringing constantly with offers for Arias and Freeman. Common sense suggests that's a helluva lot more likely than calls for Amed. Arias is a well above average defensive SS right now and you hope for the upside offensively.

You keep referring to last year with Arias and you damn well know he was injured and missed a good portion of the season with a broken hand. Why don't you refer to how he was playing at the end of the season or the prior 2 seasons? That's a rhetorical question that everyone here knows the answer to already. The only foolish thing about this is to think that Arias isn't a defensive upgrade to the shitty defensive Amed. It's also foolish to think that Arias has "lesser offense". Lots of assumptions that either crumble in the face of reasoning or are just biased guesses pulled out of thin air.

 

[sportscoach]

Amed is an average player.

Or they can just trade Amed who will be a FA soon and again, is an average player.

You can write in average for Amed because that's what he is.

He should have already been traded, but clearly there isn't much interest in him which should speak volumes to all of us.

How do you know Antonetti's phone isn't ringing constantly with offers for Arias and Freeman. Common sense suggests that's a helluva lot more likely than calls for Amed. Arias is a well above average defensive SS right now and you hope for the upside offensively.

You keep referring to last year with Arias and you damn well he was injured and missed a good portion of the season with a broken hand. Why don't you refer to how he was playing at the end of the season or the prior 2 seasons? That's a rhetorical question that everyone here knows the answer to already. The only foolish thing about this is to think that Arias isn't a defensive upgrade to the shitty defensive Amed. It's also foolish to think that Arias has "lesser offense". Lots of assumptions that either crumble in the face of reasoning or are just biased guesses pulled out of thin air.

Rosario is an average player that helps leads the team... It would be way different if he wasn't a leader, but he is. That's a huge factor in why he is still in Cleveland.

 

[CDAV45]

Rosario is an average player that helps leads the team... It would be way different if he wasn't a leader, but he is. That's a huge factor in why he is still in Cleveland.

It's your story.

 

[petes999]

Rosario is an average player that helps leads the team... It would be way different if he wasn't a leader, but he is. That's a huge factor in why he is still in Cleveland.

Damn, then what the heck are we going to do after 2023???? Are we going to pay 19 million for a leader? Might as well just blow the whole damn thing up after this year. Okay, he is a leader ... but did we keep Hedges because of his leadership and his sexy body? (SC- Hope you hear the sarcasm here ... nothing personal ... just playing). Time for one of the young pups or Gimenez or McK to step up and become that leader. Oscar fits that next man up role to a T - he got a lot of fans to follow him this year. He is that energy guy.

Honestly, I don't really care what we do with Rosario but there needs to be something done ..

1) Our 13th guy needs to be a vet or AAAA player who wastes away on the bench. Clement did get 63 games and 162 ABs but 26 was at 3rd as he was the only one without Arias and Freeman to play 3rd early on. With Brennan and Arias/Freeman, one of them will get 40 of those 63 games. But, the other one of Arias and Freeman are too good to waste there as 13th role may only get 100 ABs this year (young guns need consistent at-bats). Ain't like Mercado is our 4th OF.

2) We broke in Oscar and Kwan last year. Naylor and Freeman/Arias are this year's next man up/break-in roles as we don't keep everyone forever. Next year it can be Williams/Bibee/Espino. Don't wait to do it all at once .... otherwise it maybe a none playoff year due to the growing pains. We almost lost it this year with soo many but luckily WS and Twins tanked and our rookies came together in August/September with Morris, Kwan and Oscar helping us win when it mattered due to having a good year experience when it mattered.

3) Gimenez needs to be moved up to the #2 role over Rosario or whoever. We will have Ramirez #3 and Bell/Oscar #4 to move them in. OBP is the key -- .312 vs .371. Is Tito going to do this when Amed doesn't seem to take to change in his roles too well -- see LF issues -- 2 offseason to work on it with all the physical attributes to do it, but I could have done it better. He did have 25 games out of #2 spot but too little to analyze if he can adapt vs feeling more comfortable there (career wise #2 slot is his best but that can be skewed by earlier years struggles).

4) We need figure out the direction of this team. Is 2023 our one-and-done year if we lose Zunino/Rosario/Bell (as some fans believe) and trade Bieber afterwards or are they waiting for 2024 when Espino/Williams/Bibee are scheduled to tag-team into the rotation and see if we can bring back at least one of Zunino/Bieber. I think I know the direction as Cleveland has not gone all in to win this year with a pitcher or Murphy upgrade, thus they are waiting for the next pitching wave to compare to Bauer, Clevinger, Kluber, Cookie days because ....

Bell, Rosario and Zunino do provide slightly positive numbers this year over their replacements in rookie year BUT the bigger upgrade to this year's team will be when we replace Civale, Quant and Plesac's sub 2 WARs (1.7, 1.1 and 0.6) with Espino, Bibee, Williams, Allen and/or Morris combo. Bieber is a concern BUT unless we don't get anything back like Arraez/Lopez trade, it won't be a full 3 WAR loss. And, high quality rookie pitchers (Rod and Hall) for Balt are proj to get at least 1.7 War in 129 innings and .6 WAR in 52 inn as rookies (more as they build up their arms to 160-180 range and get experience) to soften the blow if we lose Bieber but we also have McK stepping up to.

Streamer projections--
Zunino and Naylor are a wash on proj War (Zunino is just here to break-in Naylor).

Bell had a 3.0 WAR last year and is proj 2.0 WAR this year (due to bad defense) but tell me that he cannot be mostly replaced by Oscar, Arias, Brennan, Valera, etc as they mature and get stronger (other than a bit of pop) which is possibly coming in Noel in 2 yrs and you have Jonathan Rodriquez who is SC sleeper.

Rosario is a 3.4 WAR and is 4th in position steamer projection for Cle. BUT, he is the 7th best CLE hitter projection due to Oscar, Bell, Josh negative dWAR. Freeman is 2.6 WAR projection with 600 ABs. One of Freeman, Arias or Rocchio can replace most of his value as a rookie with potential major upside in year 2 and 3. It is not make or break for this team if we keep him or lose him. And, these projections are crap to some extent as Rosario has a positive dWAR but Kwan has a negative dWAR .. HOW???

 

[avs2000]

Rosario is an average player that helps leads the team... It would be way different if he wasn't a leader, but he is. That's a huge factor in why he is still in Cleveland.

Not going to pay him after this season. I would move him for whatever pitching we can get. Move gimenez to short
Always hear about this middle infield talent we have. One of them plays second

 

[sportscoach]

Damn, then what the heck are we going to do after 2023???? Are we going to pay 19 million for a leader? Might as well just blow the whole damn thing up after this year. Okay, he is a leader ... but did we keep Hedges because of his leadership and his sexy body? (SC- Hope you head the sarcasm here ... nothing personal ... just playing). Time for one of the young pups or Gimenez or McK to step up and become that leader. Oscar fits that next man up role to a T - he got a lot of fans to follow him this year. He is that energy guy.

Honestly, I don't really care what we do with Rosario but there needs to be something done ..

1) Our 13th guy needs to be a vet or AAAA player who wastes away on the bench. Clement did get 63 games and 162 ABs but 26 was at 3rd as he was the only one without Arias and Freeman to play 3rd early on. With Brennan and Arias/Freeman, one of them will get 40 of those 63 games. But, the other one of Arias and Freeman are too good to waste there as 13th role may only get 100 ABs this year (young guns need consistent at-bats). Ain't like Mercado is our 4th OF.

2) We broke in Oscar and Kwan last year. Naylor and Freeman/Arias are this year's next man up/break-in roles as we don't keep everyone forever. Next year it can be Williams/Bibee/Espino. Don't wait to do it all at once .... otherwise it maybe a none playoff year due to the growing pains. We almost lost it this year with soo many but luckily WS and Twins tanked and our rookies came together in August/September with Morris, Kwan and Oscar helping us win when it mattered due to having a good year experience when it mattered.

3) Gimenez needs to be moved up to the #2 role over Rosario or whoever. We will have Ramirez #3 and Bell/Oscar #4 to move them in. OBP is the key -- .312 vs .371. Is Tito going to do this when Amed doesn't seem to take to change in his roles too well -- see LF issues -- 2 offseason to work on it with all the physical attributes to do it, but I could have done it better. He did have 25 games out of #2 spot but too little to analyze if he can adapt vs feeling more comfortable there (career wise #2 slot is his best but that can be skewed by earlier years struggles).

4) We need figure out the direction of this team. Is 2023 our one-and-done year if we lose Zunino/Rosario/Bell (as some fans believe) and trade Bieber afterwards or are they waiting for 2024 when Espino/Williams/Bibee are scheduled to tag-team into the rotation and see if we can bring back at least one of Zunino/Bieber. I think I know the direction as Cleveland has not gone all in to win this year with a pitcher or Murphy upgrade, thus they are waiting for the next pitching wave to compare to Bauer, Clevinger, Kluber, Cookie days because ....

Bell, Rosario and Zunino do provide slightly positive numbers this year over their replacements in rookie year BUT the bigger upgrade to this year's team will be when we replace Civale, Quant and Plesac's sub 2 WARs (1.7, 1.1 and 0.6) with Espino, Bibee, Williams, Allen and/or Morris combo. Bieber is a concern BUT unless we don't get anything back like Arraez/Lopez trade, it won't be a full 3 WAR loss. And, high quality rookie pitchers (Rod and Hall) for Balt are proj to get at least 1.7 War in 129 innings and .6 WAR in 52 inn as rookies (more as they build up their arms to 160-180 range and get experience) to soften the blow if we lose Bieber but we also have McK stepping up to.

Streamer projections--
Zunino and Naylor are a wash on proj War (Zunino is just here to break-in Naylor).

Bell had a 3.0 WAR last year and is proj 2.0 WAR this year (due to bad defense) but tell me that he cannot be mostly replaced by Oscar, Arias, Brennan, Valera, etc as they mature and get stronger (other than a bit of pop) which is possibly coming in Noel in 2 yrs and you have Jonathan Rodriquez who is SC sleeper.

Rosario is a 3.4 WAR and is 4th in position steamer projection for Cle. BUT, he is the 7th best CLE hitter projection due to Oscar, Bell, Josh negative dWAR. Freeman is 2.6 WAR projection with 600 ABs. One of Freeman, Arias or Rocchio can replace most of his value as a rookie with potential major upside in year 2 and 3. It is not make or break for this team if we keep him or lose him. And, these projections are crap to some extent as Rosario has a positive dWAR but Kwan has a negative dWAR .. HOW???

Baseball is still a business and players get that as well, but trading a leader mid season is what makes no sense. It usually sends the wrong message which is why, if Rosario is not traded before spring starts, he will be in Cleveland. Hedges left in FA which is something that is acceptable to players. I think even he would admit that he wanted to be back, but didn't 100% blame Cleveland for taking him back. There is a time and place for moving guys and for someone like Rosario it's not very smart to move him during the season. It's before spring and not at all. A Leader shouldn't be moved out of the roster during a pennant season if they are healthy and playing well. So unless we are way out in the trade deadline or he is playing super bad at the trade deadline, he's on the roster if he starts with us in spring.

Don't forget, he is the old guy in the clubhouse at 27 with the position players. He has the second most experience on the position side of the team outside of the new guys. I'm not against keeping Rosario since he took a leadership role in 22.

Not going to pay him after this season. I would move him for whatever pitching we can get. Move gimenez to short
Always hear about this middle infield talent we have. One of them plays second

Arias is better suited for SS while Freeman is ar 2B... So that also factors into what we do.

Also back to Pete, I agree I want a veteran/a Clement in the last spot on the roster role. What they may actually do is rotate players there. Reason why I say that, is to get guys feet wet in the bigs so they aren't overwhelmed in a sense when m/if they have to take a bigger role. We may see an almost planned out shuttle for the 13th spot. So Freeman for a time, Benson for a time, Lavastida for a time etc... I wouldn't even be surprised to see Lavastida go north with the team, to play a few games around Zunino and Alomar while minor league camp is going on...

 

[petes999]

Baseball is still a business and players get that as well, but trading a leader mid season is what makes no sense. It usually sends the wrong message which is why, if Rosario is not traded before spring starts, he will be in Cleveland. Hedges left in FA which is something that is acceptable to players. I think even he would admit that he wanted to be back, but didn't 100% blame Cleveland for taking him back. There is a time and place for moving guys and for someone like Rosario it's not very smart to move him during the season. It's before spring and not at all. A Leader shouldn't be moved out of the roster during a pennant season if they are healthy and playing well. So unless we are way out in the trade deadline or he is playing super bad at the trade deadline, he's on the roster if he starts with us in spring.

Don't forget, he is the old guy in the clubhouse at 27 with the position players. He has the second most experience on the position side of the team outside of the new guys. I'm not against keeping Rosario since he took a leadership role in 22.



Arias is better suited for SS while Freeman is ar 2B... So that also factors into what we do.

Also back to Pete, I agree I want a veteran/a Clement in the last spot on the roster role. What they may actually do is rotate players there. Reason why I say that, is to get guys feet wet in the bigs so they aren't overwhelmed in a sense when m/if they have to take a bigger role. We may see an almost planned out shuttle for the 13th spot. So Freeman for a time, Benson for a time, Lavastida for a time etc... I wouldn't even be surprised to see Lavastida go north with the team, to play a few games around Zunino and Alomar while minor league camp is going on...

Honestly, they will probably keep him as no team is flocking to trade for him. And, agree if he isn't traded by end-of-ST, he is more likely to be with us but more because they are not flipping Gimenez mid-season from 2nd to SS if Freeman is better than Arias (and V noted Freeman and Brennan as 2 surprises this year but not Arias even though the later 2 had more playing time so less of a surprise to fans).

I can see that 13th man rotation kind of working as Benson/Palacios need time to sink or swim as well - and I kind of tagged onto your 8th BP role with the same thought. Yet. I don't really agree as you can tell from above about leadership. Sometimes you need to create a void to have someone step up. I already mentioned a few that could do that ... even a Kwan is starting to step in by helping Benson with meditation. It comes in all forms just not hustling out a ball to 1st. Naylor and his helmet throwing energy is also starting to become a leader. Even though Jose is quiet, just having him there on the steps chatting the team and opponent up is the calming force you sometimes need. The ying-yang you need.

And more importantly, if Freeman/Arias/Rocchio are deserving of a starter role like a star rookie at expense of Rosario, it is doing a vet a solid to put him into a better position to enter FA by trading them at deadline ... team will understand that Rosario would rather start somewhere than be our utility guy when it matters to him about offseason $$$$.

 

[ice cream man]

Remember when he tried to bunt in the playoffs? Trade him.

 

[Gson]

Honestly, they will probably keep him as no team is flocking to trade for him. And, agree if he isn't traded by end-of-ST, he is more likely to be with us but more because they are not flipping Gimenez mid-season from 2nd to SS if Freeman is better than Arias (and V noted Freeman and Brennan as 2 surprises this year but not Arias even though the later 2 had more playing time so less of a surprise to fans).

I can see that 13th man rotation kind of working as Benson/Palacios need time to sink or swim as well - and I kind of tagged onto your 8th BP role with the same thought. Yet. I don't really agree as you can tell from above about leadership. Sometimes you need to create a void to have someone step up. I already mentioned a few that could do that ... even a Kwan is starting to step in by helping Benson with meditation. It comes in all forms just not hustling out a ball to 1st. Naylor and his helmet throwing energy is also starting to become a leader. Even though Jose is quiet, just having him there on the steps chatting the team and opponent up is the calming force you sometimes need. The ying-yang you need.

And more importantly, if Freeman/Arias/Rocchio are deserving of a starter role like a star rookie at expense of Rosario, it is doing a vet a solid to put him into a better position to enter FA by trading them at deadline ... team will understand that Rosario would rather start somewhere than be our utility guy when it matters to him about offseason $$$$.

Quiet?.. he never shuts up.. has a running dialogue going all the time..

 

[AZ_]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying about growth and level of play not being linear. Are you suggesting Amed is a more sure option, a better option, both or neither?

I’m saying pretending you know the answer to this is nothing beyond projection.

I’m saying he’s earned his spot and it appears obvious he’s coming back for the start of 2023, his level of play will need to maintain that spot.

Otherwise, he’s getting passed. That’s the nature of the business.