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Andraez “Greedy” Williams: Round 2, Pick 46

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Hahahahaha you guys are acting like you’re excited for talent to leave out building.

Mind numbing.
Not really. It is your obsession with this that is mind numbing. It is draft time how about we actually focus on that. There is absolutely no way that anyone knows if we will lose any of our young talent due to salary issues at this early stage. Enjoy the ride and stop fretting about a future that may never end up as an issue.
 
Not really. It is your obsession with this that is mind numbing. It is draft time how about we actually focus on that. There is absolutely no way that anyone knows if we will lose any of our young talent due to salary issues at this early stage. Enjoy the ride and stop fretting about a future that may never end up as an issue.
You could probably say this in the Indians section as well.
 
My thoughts on Greedy:

If anyone was in the draft chat during round 2, they know I wasn't a big Greedy fan. I thought his poor tackling would sink him in 2018, and that he wasn't as good an athlete as advertised. I have looked into it more and more, I'm pretty sure my initial reaction was misinformed and, quite frankly, biased because of other players I put more research into. Let's dig in.

Greedy's Production:

Williams has been extremely good for several years now. Obviously you know about his passer rating and pass defenses. Both are high quality and while it does show his ability to become a great pass defender potentially, there are actually other indicators that show what his potentially could be.

According to CommonManFootball's Jim Coburn, some of the best indicators of CB success rate is Tackle Market Share and Pass Deflection Market Share. I'm sure at this point, people might be switching off because of these terms. They are, in my opinion, totally easy to understand. Tackle market share is amount of tackles for the player divided by how many team tackles there are. Same for pass deflections. This shows exactly how he produced on the defense compared to his teammates, which is often a decent indicator of talent and production. I highly recommend visiting Coburn's youtube channel, in particular his video on Williams, and reading the description. He really breaks it down, and straight up shows you how Williams stacks up. It's also short and easy to understand. Go to youtube and look at the description for how to understand these concepts.

( View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpDPkpra65I&t=185s
)

ANYWAY, Williams tackle market share and pass deflection market share hovers around two different thresholds: All-Pro and Pro Bowl. What Jim goes onto describe is that while his production might not be the most elite of elite, he meets thresholds to possibly be a long term pro bowl quality corner.

Greedy Williams athletic profile:

Here's the thing about his athletic profile, it's really incomplete. While what we know of Greedy is really good, he didn't perform the most important drills. He measured in with at 6'1 7/8" (92%), 185 pounds (18%), 74 1/2 wing span (53%) 31 1/2 " arm length (51%) and 9 1/4 " hands (57%). As a height, weight, length corner, he obviously posts some really good numbers. Obviously, extremely tall and good arm length and hand size and then added onto it, he runs a 4.37 40 which is blazing fast.

For what we know of most of the current front office as far as what they prefer, we turn to Justis Mosqueda. He is a GB fan, who now works for Optimum Scouting, and wrote this article last year about what Ted Thompson preferred. Obviously with Gutenkunst, it applies to Green Bay a lot. With the Browns, John Dorsey, Eliot Wolf, and Alonzo Highsmith are obviously grew into the NFL with Ted Thompson and probably have similar thinking. This article has other athletic data checkmarks for positions, if you are curious: https://m.cheeseheadtv.com/blog/jus...rs-draft-board-and-athleticism-thresholds-638

The Thompson Tree prefers their corners be taller than 5'11" (check), 4.57 40 (check), and a 6.83 three cone (didn't run the test). It makes sense why Dorsey had him rated so highly, as his testing was basically off the charts except the three cone which he didn't run. One would assume if he did a private workout, he would have ran the test or they had some idea of his ballpark. As an athlete, Greedy passes a lot of tests.

Greedy Williams player profile conclusion:

I was obviously very unfair to claim that this was a bad pick the moment I heard the announcement. After looking into his great production and superior athletic testing, I think we can conclude that Greedy Williams has all the talent to be a dominating cornerback in the NFL. The question really comes two fold: Why did he not get drafted in the 1st and are there legitimate concerns about his dedication to football? I think both of those questions can be answered with a resounding we will see. It's the only thing that can really stop him and it's the only question that can be totally determined by Greedy himself.

What we can say without a shadow of a doubt, is that Greedy Williams has everything. His tackling in 2018 was weak, but as an overall career, it is right in line with other All-Pro corners. Obviously, the most important thing is that Greedy has shown, analytically, he can be a great cover corner, and ultimately that's what he's going to be asked to do the most. As an athlete, from what we know publically, he easily exceeds what Dorsey is looking for in a corner, which has proven to be successful for other teams like Green Bay.

I'm excited to see the future of Greedy Williams and what he ultimately does opposite Denzel Ward.
 
Not really. It is your obsession with this that is mind numbing. It is draft time how about we actually focus on that. There is absolutely no way that anyone knows if we will lose any of our young talent due to salary issues at this early stage. Enjoy the ride and stop fretting about a future that may never end up as an issue.

It’s perfectly okay to think about the future... don’t act like there’s some shit wrong with doing that.
 
Also, I cannot stress this enough: Analytics in football are on the rise seriously. I wish someone would get fired from the Eagles, Colts or Browns and start a website so we can get their stuff :chuckle:
 
Also, I cannot stress this enough: Analytics in football are on the rise seriously. I wish someone would get fired from the Eagles, Colts or Browns and start a website so we can get their stuff :chuckle:
To that end, there is a lot of new research coming out about the value of cornerback vs. pass rusher. When you look at data over the past two decades, no defensive position is statistically significantly associated with wins (Hughes, Andrew, Cory Koedel, and Joshua A. Price. "Positional WAR in the National Football League." Journal of Sports Economics 16, no. 6 (2015): 597-613.). But, interestingly, it is starting to look like cornerbacks may actually provide more value than pass rushers. This is for a few reasons.

1) Most intuitively, corners are impactful on every offensive pass play. Regardless of how the play ends, a cornerback covers a potential receiver the entire play. Pass rushers, on the other hand, generally see negative results (no sack or hurries). It is the nature of line play. Because of this, a lot of the data is starting to suggest that corners are the most important position on the defense, especially as the NFL begins passing the ball more. This was initially pointed out by Dean Oliver in 2013 - pass rushers are imperfectly correlated with pass rush, which means other factors explain pass rush better (http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/9946600/how-value-measure-pass-protection-pass-rush-nfl).

2) Sacks are the second most valuable defensive play, and unlike interceptions (the most), they are not nearly as random nor inconsistent. The problem is that sacks are incredibly rare. The best edge rushers get under one sack per game. Still, that is enough value to suggest that a stud pass rusher who gets .75 sacks per game is probably more valuable than a stud corner.

3) Okay, king, but edge rushers also get hurries... You did not consider that! Wrong, I did. Most of the recent research on this suggest hurrying the QB is actually not all that important. NFL offenses have gotten better as pass hurries have improved, including on plays when the QB is hurried (
https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2018/defense-and-pass-pressure-2017). Additionally, FO's DVOA metric - the best analytical defensive measure - is most associated with defensive yards allowed when pass rush does not occur. This quote explains why (from the same article linked above).

Since 2010, the correlation between a defense's pressure rate and DVOA is -0.33 -- the defenses that get pressure frequently tend to outplay those that don't. The correlation between a defense's DVOA with pressure and overall DVOA is stronger at 0.43 -- defenses that play well with pressure tend to play well without it too. But what is most telling of a defense tends to be how it defends when pressure doesn't get there. The correlation between DVOA without pressure and overall DVOA is 0.80, since that's how most of the game is played defensively. We also see higher year-to-year correlations when looking at DVOA without pressure. Year-to-year correlation for defensive DVOA is already low at 0.34 since 2010, but it's just 0.06 if looking at DVOA with pressure against next year's overall DVOA. That jumps up to 0.25 using DVOA without pressure.

Ultimately, in my mind, cornerback is the highest value pick right now. They do not get the same enormous contracts as pass rushers while adding potentially more value.

Greedy, meanwhile, projects to be a really good NFL corner. Jim Coburn ranks pass deflection and tackle share higher than people at Football Outsiders and myself do. It's an unresolved debate, but it is a flawed stat because it inflates "big fish, small pond" players. Nonetheless, whether you are looking at those stats, or coverage snap performance (another strong predictor), Greedy ranks as a really good cornerback.

The biggest concern with Greedy is going to be his desire to play... That and the injury risk due to his size, to me, are the most likely reasons why he fell. I am optimistic that the Browns will bring the best out of Greedy and we get two bookends at corner to form our own legion of boom.
 
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It’s perfectly okay to think about the future... don’t act like there’s some shit wrong with doing that.

Then, actually get off this tangent and discuss Greedy's future as the team's corner two. Something actually on topic instead. Seeing as this is the draft thread about Greedy Williams.
 
Then, actually get off this tangent and discuss Greedy's future as the team's corner two. Something actually on topic instead. Seeing as this is the draft thread about Greedy Williams.

Shit was dead in the water until you quoted it again
 
Jking, could you extrapolate any of that work into position groups?

Let's say you have a good DE that has to get doubled, leading to sacks for others along the line...

Alternatively, you have a great corner on one side but a terrible one on the other side that gets picked on all game...
 
Jking, could you extrapolate any of that work into position groups?

Let's say you have a good DE that has to get doubled, leading to sacks for others along the line...

Alternatively, you have a great corner on one side but a terrible one on the other side that gets picked on all game...

I cannot say for certain, but teams aren't doubling Edge's much anymore.

They are scheming quick passing games to negate edge rushers. If the ball gets out, on average, 2 seconds, Edge Rushers cannot get there in time.

It's why I think we'll start seeing emphasis on corners and interior pass rushers very soon, and why I think the NFL is dumb for not drafting Q Williams and Oliver higher.
 
It’s perfectly okay to think about the future... don’t act like there’s some shit wrong with doing that.

Yeah it’s perfectly okay, but when you’re talking about something 4 years away, getting all defensive about it, and continue to bring it up, it’s annoying to everyone else. Go ahead and be sad. Just stop trying to act like we all should be.
 
Jking, could you extrapolate any of that work into position groups?

Let's say you have a good DE that has to get doubled, leading to sacks for others along the line...

Alternatively, you have a great corner on one side but a terrible one on the other side that gets picked on all game...
I don't know any research that has looked into that specifically...

The closest is the JSE article I posted above. Basically, when a starting DE, CB, etc., gets replaced because of injury, teams do not really see any difference that can be absolutely attributed to the change.

What we do have is data that controls for other positions. Losing an average corner to injury effects pass rush more than losing an average edge player.

But nothing that specifically answers your question, sorry. Maybe someone else knows better than me?

@Amherstcavsfan @priceFTW
 
Analytics in football are going to be difficult and muddy for a while. They're a good tool, but I don't think they will ever have the value they can bring to an individual sport like baseball, or even to basketball. It's so hard to find meaningful data for an individual separated from the coaching, the other talent on the field, the schedule that team plays (high variance due to only 16 games in a season).

Analytics should, and are, being used to tell us how to build a better team--like focusing on interior pass rush and coverage over linebackers. But I think they're still a long ways off from identifying which players are going to be successful contributors to winning. A stat like tackle share has so many external variables that the correlation between tackle share and success might be apparent over hundreds of samples, but to apply it to a single individual player might not yield strong results.
 
I cannot say for certain, but teams aren't doubling Edge's much anymore.

They are scheming quick passing games to negate edge rushers. If the ball gets out, on average, 2 seconds, Edge Rushers cannot get there in time.

It's why I think we'll start seeing emphasis on corners and interior pass rushers very soon, and why I think the NFL is dumb for not drafting Q Williams and Oliver higher.

This is interesting. This may also suggest that Press-Man Corners, like Greedy and Ward, will see an increase in value, as they are required to stop the short quick passes to the outsides.
 

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