Andre Drummond - LeBron's Robin

[Jordan]

Hey, I'm the official Reddit account for the Sports-Reference sites. Here's a long-winded explanation of what the deal is with these.

The confusion here is that our Offensive/Defensive Rating is a different stat from NBA.com's, which is the version that's more widely used. We're using a stat developed by Dean Oliver in 2004 to measure, as Dean puts it, "the number of points produced by a player per hundred total individual possessions. In other words, 'How many points is a player likely to generate when he tries?'" (meaning unlike team stat the player has to be involved to generate stats) This is calculated largely using player stats like points, assists, etc. The only team stats that go into the calculations are used to determine possessions or figure out what proportion of team's numbers an individual is responsible for.

The NBA uses the same name for their version of O/DRtg, but it measures something different: the points a team scores/allows per 100 possessions with a player is on the floor. Here, there are no individual level stats, it's only based on team numbers with a player on the floor.

There are advantages and disadvantages to each methodology (this is a good blog post breaking those down: http://thebrooklyngame.com/stat-corner-offensive-defensive-rating/). When we added the PbP data needed to calculate the NBA's version of O/DRtg, we didn't want to have two stats with the same name on our site, so we went with On/Off. What we call OnCourt is the team's NRtg when a player's on the floor and what we call On/Off is the difference in a team's NRtg when the player plays vs when he sits.

We try to have as much info as possible, so we carry both versions of the stat. You can see more in-depth on/off numbers for a player on their on/off page, linked to in a tab on the menu bar at the top of a player's page (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/on-off/2018)

TL;DR: ORtg/DRtg on our site is an estimate of how many points a player produced/allowed per 100 possessions used/defended. It's much more focused individual performance while what NBA.com calles ORtg/DRtg is about measuring how an individual affects team performance.

Right, but the stat is still dependent on the other nine players on the court because it is not regression-based. It is a points produced vs. points allowed/100 posessions stat. It is good - but it is still team dependent.

 

[MrX]

Right, but the stat is still dependent on the other nine players on the court because it is not regression-based. It is a points produced vs. points allowed/100 posessions stat. It is good - but it is still team dependent.

Call the stat what you like but it is individual points produced and individual points allowed per 100 possessions vs team points with player and team points allowed with player per 100 possessions.

When you compare to the 2 very different stats per game you see regression because one includes the player on every possession he is on the court and the other only when the player has individual performance.

Team stat or not it's still based as much as possible on individual performance.

The whole point is they are very different.

When Murph posted Drummonds basketball ball reference DRtg 106 immediately I thought individual performance. When I look at NBA DRtg 126.9

I recently started back at work and don't have the time I did last month to crank out posts or stats and don't want to hijack this thread any longer then we have. With that being said I do think it's important for fans to understand both stats as reference while taking both in with a grain of salt.

 

[Murph]

Call the stat what you like but it is individual points produced and individual points allowed per 100 possessions vs team points with player vs team points allowed with player per 100 possessions.

When you compare to the 2 very different stats per game you see regression because one includes the player on every possession he is on the court and the other only when the player has individual performance.

Team stat or not it's still based as much as possible on individual performance.

The whole point is they are very different.

When Murph posted Drummonds basketball ball reference DRtg 106 immediately I thought individual performance. When I look at NBA DRtg 126.9

I recently started back at work and don't have the time I did last month to crank out posts or stats and don't want to hijack this thread any longer then we have. With that being said I do think it's important for fans to understand both stats as reference while taking both in with a grain of salt.

Sorry for being so dense, but now I am completely confused. When I look at Basketball Reference and see Drummond's 106 DRtg, I assumed it's what the opposing teams score per 100 possessions when Drummond is in the game, and that he is actually leading the Cavs in this category.

In other words, I assumed that Drummond is doing many little things that do not jump out at a fan watching a game. We all see Drummond having mental lapses on defense and getting lost on switches. But I assumed we don't fully appreciate the little things Drummond does that impacts the game, such as steals, deflections, recovering loose balls, altering shots, blocking shots and of course rebounding. All of these things make it difficult for opponents to score when Drummond is in the game.

Am I not looking at Drummond's defensive rating correctly? Please explain.

 

[MrX]

Sorry for being so dense, but now I am completely confused. When I look at Basketball Reference and see Drummond's 106 DRtg, I assumed it's what the opposing teams score per 100 possessions when Drummond is in the game, and that he is actually leading the Cavs in this category.

In other words, I assumed that Drummond is doing many little things that do not jump out at a fan watching a game. We all see Drummond having mental lapses on defense and getting lost on switches. But I assumed we don't fully appreciate the little things Drummond does that impacts the game, such as steals, deflections, recovering loose balls, altering shots, blocking shots and of course rebounding. All of these things make it difficult for opponents to score when Drummond is in the game.

Am I not looking at Drummond's defensive rating correctly? Please explain.

Read my post before the last one. It's goes in detail the difference. The confusion is 2 very different stats with the same name.

 

[MrX]

Sorry for being so dense, but now I am completely confused. When I look at Basketball Reference and see Drummond's 106 DRtg, I assumed it's what the opposing teams score per 100 possessions when Drummond is in the game, and that he is actually leading the Cavs in this category.

In other words, I assumed that Drummond is doing many little things that do not jump out at a fan watching a game. We all see Drummond having mental lapses on defense and getting lost on switches. But I assumed we don't fully appreciate the little things Drummond does that impacts the game, such as steals, deflections, recovering loose balls, altering shots, blocking shots and of course rebounding. All of these things make it difficult for opponents to score when Drummond is in the game.

Am I not looking at Drummond's defensive rating correctly? Please explain.

The Drummond stats your looking for you can find on NBA site or you go to Drummonds basketball reference page and click on/off. There you can see team ORtg and opponents ORtg with Drummond on.

The DRtg stat you pulled from basketball reference has very complicated formula that's based around as much individual defense as possible but should only be use as reference. The stat benefits players with rebounds.

 

[Murph]

The Drummond stats your looking for you can find on NBA site or you go to Drummonds basketball reference page and click on/off. There you can see team ORtg and opponents ORtg with Drummond on.

The DRtg stat you pulled from basketball reference has very complicated formula that's based around as much individual defense as possible but should only be use as reference. The stat benefits players with rebounds.

Got it. Fascinating. Thank you.

 

[Murph]

It’s nice that the Cavs are turning their season around, but at this point, for the sake of their draft position, they really do not need to win any more games.

The Cavs should shut down Drummond snd Thompson (and Love and Dellavedova for that matter) for the rest of the season, and just play this kids. The young players need the experience, and the Cavs need to lose.

 

[DownTownTribeFan]

As a fantasy basketball player, I've learned over the past 2 seasons to play whoever the opposing center is to Drummond on any given night. This method has paid off. Not saying I don't like Andre. I do. What he needs is a defensive Stud along side him at PF

 

[Sir'Dom Pointer]

As a fantasy basketball player, I've learned over the past 2 seasons to play whoever the opposing center is to Drummond on any given night. This method has paid off. Not saying I don't like Andre. I do. What he needs is a defensive Stud along side him at PF

His offense is not good enough for us to look for a defensive 4 to offset his d shortcomings.
Would be extremely hard to find a two way 4 compared to finding a plus offensive 4.
Much better to have an anchor at the 5.

 

[DownTownTribeFan]

His offense is not good enough for us to look for a defensive 4 to offset his d shortcomings.
Would be extremely hard to find a two way 4 compared to finding a plus offensive 4.
Much better to have an anchor at the 5.

His numbers are still confusing. As I mentioned, playing the opposing center on any given night seems to be a lock for elite fantasy points. Yet Drummond is #1 in rebounds and #1 steals among all centers.

 

[avs2000]

It’s nice that the Cavs are turning their season around, but at this point, for the sake of their draft position, they really do not need to win any more games.

The Cavs should shut down Drummond snd Thompson (and Love and Dellavedova for that matter) for the rest of the season, and just play this kids. The young players need the experience, and the Cavs need to lose.

It will not hurt them much with the new lottery system. Better to start build a little winning culture

 

[Dr. Claw]

It will not hurt them much with the new lottery system. Better to start build a little winning culture

Right. The Lakers had way more wins than the Cavs, yet picked ahead of the Cavs. I'm not worried if the Cavs make it to 25 (or .... even 30)

 

[FrontPageNews]

Drummond spent too much time around Blake. He should not be handing the ball this much.

 

[Murph]

I’ve been watching Drummond since his UConn days, but last night was a version of Drummond that I’ve never seen before. Now, i realize it was only the Spurs, so we should take it with a grain of salt. But he looked much thinner, quicker and more aggressive offensely. And significantly, he only turned the ball over once all night.

I will say this about Drummond, nothing is set in stone with him. He has the ability to surprise. He’s still only 26, and his game is still evolving. For example, when he came into the league, he was an historically bad free throw shooter..maybe the worst of all time. But he worked at it, and now he shoots right around 60% from the line...still not good, but not horrendous. And in fact, that probably represents one of the biggest improvements in free throw shooting in the history of the NBA.

So it is not out of the realm of possibility that Drummond could develop into a proficient offensive player at this stage of his career. He certainly was last night.

I think back on Charles Barkley’s career. When he came into the league, he was The Round Mound of Rebound. He was a rebounding machine, but somewhat limited offensively. By the end of his career, Barkley probably dropped 40 lbs, became much quicker, and put up MVP numbers offensively. Now, I’m not saying Drummond will over play at Barkley’s level; he won’t. I’m just saying players can evolve drastically over the course of their careers.

 

[cabs]

If JBB can reel him in a bit, make him set more screens instead of shooting 3's + dribble drives he could really help this team try and earn some respect back next season