Andrew Bogut: Big White Stiff???????

[TJ_4_CV31]

I've supplied you with the visual facts concerning Bogut's athleticism and skill set. Here is an exchange concerning the scientific facts borrowed from my Bucks board......


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On 9/29/2005 9:57:18 AM matt51776 wrote:

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On 9/29/2005 9:27:09 AM Spike wrote:



Matt, your stats show Bogut as definitely worth a try at the 4. Let Stotts plug him in there and see what happens.
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Here they are from the other thread again. this was in response to yet another unathletic claim where Williams and Warrick were said to be faster more athletic.

Here are some real stats not an opinion on athletismn from ESPN insider Archives:

Column 1 is Bench Press Reps of 185#'s Strength test
Column 2 is Vertical Jump
Column 3 Lateral quickness or lane agility drill in secons
Column 4 3/4 court sprint

Now obviously the smaller guys should be faster, like Paul And obviously 7 footers dont jump as high as 6'3" guys they dont have to jump higher to play above them. but look at this and tell me he is slow.

I picked mostly bigger guys and included some PF and SF bercause you listed them.

Andrew Bogut 13 33&1/2" 11.89 3.21
Marvin Williams 12 35" 11.11 3.17
Hakim Warrick 11 38" N/A 3.22
Channing Frye 19 31" 11.60 3.38
Charlie Villa. 11 31" 10.86 3.39
Wayne Simien 11 27& 1/2" 11.05 3.35
Ike Diogu 21 31" 11.94 3.45
Chris Taft 14 33" 11.26 3.27

Bogut is faster then all of these super athletic types in 3/4 court sprints who is slow again?

His Vert is higher then most of these guys.

His bench press was average out of the 60 or so Bigger guys tested.

These are the official combine results where you get unathletic is beyond me. Marvin is not faster according to these results neither is warrick.

 

[Mac]

Speed does not indicate athleticism. There are things those players do that Bogut has no chance at doing...

Bogut does remind me a lot of Chris Mihm, except a lil bit more aggressive.

I wouldnt expect a great career out of him, at best he is a poor mans Brad Miller.

Just to show you that your last post was meaningless, Diop had pretty much similiar numbers. Very athletic, can jump, did have some strength and we all saw how that turned out.

And its just not basketball, look at football. Lesnar tried out for the NFL, all of his "combine" number were top flight NFL numbers, but he didnt stand a chance.

Again, all this is pre-mature. You are setting yourself up to look really stupid if he struggles this year. Pre-season hasnt even started and you are starting a campaign for the guy to be ROY based on him running in between some cones.

 

[TJ_4_CV31]

A-Mac,

I don't know whether to label your last post "superficial", "vague", or "condescending". Obviously speed in and of itself does not equate to NBA success. Neither does "athletic" when standing on its own. The camp numbers are just evidence against the notion that Bogut is slow and unathletic which he clearly isn't. Watch the video again and believe your lying eyes.

Comparing Diop to ANYONE listed on my short list is an insult to that players parents. First, I doubt if Diop's pre-draft numbers actually equaled Bogut's, but if they did, the difference is that Diop doesn't possess Bogut's basketball skill set or pedigree. Dumb analogy there buddy.

Also, if you want to chime in with "Bogut hasn't played a game yet".....that's a tad hypocritical when you freely suggest that the Cavaliers will win 10 more games this year with their new personel. While I don't put to much stock in pre-season rankings and awards, most publications that I've read have Bogut penciled in as the ROY.

Poor man's Miller?.....We'll see buddy, we'll just see. :chuckles:

I can sense your fear A-Mac.....the Diop analogy was a dead giveaway. :thumbdown

 

[PIP]

Most Publications also have the Cavs ranked 4th in the east and the Bucks missing out on the playoffs..

But we should ignore those and only read the ones that have Bogey winning the trophy right ?

Doesn't matter though, Cause we've been there and done that..

 

[Mac]

Fear? Fear of what?

Z will destroy Bogut like he does the entire NBA..

I could care less how he turns out, his success has nothing to do with the Cavaliers, they will forever be under the Cavs while Lebron is here.

Hate to break your heart there though...

Bogut may turn out to be a good player, if he does great. I dont care...but you are putting him as the next best thing when he clearly isnt that. You better be happy if he can have the career Miller has, because thats about as far as his potential will take him.

 

[Karma]

The comparison to Mihm is a little off the mark. Mihm has always been a timid guy and had the "soft" label on him from day one. Bogut is an aggressive player with a solid skillset. He is reasonably athletic for a center, but TJ, he should not play power forward. His lateral movement isn't so crash hot, and he would find himself in foul trouble often. Even the Brad Miller comparison is a little off with Bogut definately the better post player. Both though are good passers of the ball.

Bogut will have some tough periods throughout his rookie campaign, but his game should translate well and I too see him as a rookie of the year favourite.

 

[TJ_4_CV31]

The comparison to Mihm is a little off the mark. Mihm has always been a timid guy and had the "soft" label on him from day one. Bogut is an aggressive player with a solid skillset. He is reasonably athletic for a center, but TJ, he should not play power forward. His lateral movement isn't so crash hot, and he would find himself in foul trouble often. Even the Brad Miller comparison is a little off with Bogut definately the better post player. Both though are good passers of the ball.

Bogut will have some tough periods throughout his rookie campaign, but his game should translate well and I too see him as a rookie of the year favourite.

I pretty much agree with everything you say here. What I'd like the Bucks to do is go with Bogut and Gadz in the starting lineup as pf/c (logistics won't allow this though since Ervin Johnson is Diop Sr.). I think Bogut can matchup against some power forwards....particularly a couple of really good ones in our division. Against Detroit, Bogut could gaurd Rasheed while Gadz continues his relative dominance (look it up) over Ben Wallace at center. Against Chicago, Bogut could gaurd either Chandler or Curry if they are in the lineup together. Tim Duncan....Bogut/Gadz....Mohammed.

Quite is kept Karma, I thing Bogut will go down as the best Australian basketball player to date. I think his back to the basket game is what will seperate him from Brad Miller. By my estimation, he'll be a top 5 center in two years. Top 10 center from day 1.

 

[TJ_4_CV31]

Most Publications also have the Cavs ranked 4th in the east and the Bucks missing out on the playoffs..

But we should ignore those and only read the ones that have Bogey winning the trophy right ?

Doesn't matter though, Cause we've been there and done that..

I think it was "Old Skool" who gave you a hard time over rankings pimping. My take has always been that Milwaukee traditionally isn't given the benefit of the doubt in these publications. Remember, the Bucks were picked to the the second worst team in basketball the year that they made the playoffs going 41-41. I saw one today (Lindy's) that have the Knicks ranked as a stronger team, by their point system, than Cleveland, Chicago, and Milwaukee.

In regards to the Bucks, who are erroneously portrayed as a struggling franchise looking for a breakthrough, these magazines fail to acknowledge facts like these:

In the past 7 years, the Bucks have been in the playoffs for 5 of them, including a trip to the Eastern Conference Finals (Game 7). In the two years that we missed, one year we missed on the last day of the season (favorite Cav claim from last season) and the other, imo, was a throwaway setup for the offseason of 2005. The Bucks have been a strong, competitive team for six of the last seven years. There's your credibility.

I don't think my friends from Cleveland can make that claim. So don't think I'm off base when I say the Cavs, like the Bucks, are not a lock to make the playoffs.


Hey LePip,

Is that the playoff bound Carmelo Anthony's trophy that Lebron is babysitting? :chuckles:

 

[Karma]

Almost had a civil debate going there for a second. Lets keep this on subject. A previous thread got banned for this exact thing.

TJ, I would not put Bogut on Rasheed. He'll hurt him on the perimter. Gadzuric to me is a better lateral mover then Bogut. Don't mess with him by switching him away from his natural position. It will just dent his confidense. Cleveland were forced to play James at point guard which is not at all his ideal position. Whilst he still played the position admirably and better then most point guards, it was not the best thing for his development as a swingmen. He was not learning how to play off the ball. Now Cleveland's hands were tied as they had no decent point guards, whereas Milwaukee can play Smith and Gadzuric at the four and protect Bogut.

 

[TJ_4_CV31]

Don't get me wrong Karma, I am, shall I say, curious , concerning Bogut's ability to gaurd power forwards out on the perimeter. I don't think there's any chance in the world that he could gaurd a guy like Garnett out on the floor. However, I mentioned Rasheed because of the style of offense that he plays. I don't see Rasheed putting the ball on the floor and driving past defenders. He generally will face them up and shoot over them or fire away on a catch and shoot. Bogut is kind of long so he should be able to contest Sheed's normally unblockable jumper.

There are those that argue that playing Bogut at the 4 a la Tim Duncan, removes his advantage of being a potential top tier center. There is some logic to this theory considering the overall derth of talent at the 5 leaguewide. I think Stotts will play Bogut at the 4 during certain stretches of certain games. In fact, he made the all-summerleague team as a power forward. However, conventional wisdom here supports the notion of Bogut starting at center with Gadzuric coming off of the bench.

Which thread got banned and why?

 

[Karma]

Bannedwas the wrong word, it was locked. Reason being the subject matter was lost and the thread become our typical Cavs vs Bucks arguement which at times spilled over toward the ridiculous.

I have noticed the past couple of days the Bucks have signed two further bigs, which allows Milwaukee and Bogut some more flexibility.

 

[TJ_4_CV31]

Yeah, Andre Barrett (gaurd) and Tommy Smith (forward) will ultimately be camp casualties. Brandon Hunter (forward) is the guy that may find a job. Larry Harris has a history of signing guys that made a living killing the Bucks. Brandon Hunter is no exception (career high in points against Milwaukee along with great rebounding).

If the Bucks were to sign Hunter for the regular season, we'd be at our roster limit of 15. Reece Gaines is the last man on our bench but he has a gauranteed 1 year contract. Usually, a GM will leave one spot open for a specific need in case of an injury so some are speculating that Reece Gaines, a player that truly has no value to us, will get cut despite his garaunteed contract. I don't think that's going to happen but Hunter may stick anyway.

Hunter is a short (6-7), powerfully built (266lbs) power forward. I think Larry signed him as injury insurance for Smith and Kukoc. The Bucks may also want to rest Smith and Kukoc during the regular season like the Spurs did with Robert Horry. I think the Bucks agree with me in the notion that a fiesty guy like Bogut needs an enforcer on the court when necessary. This is why I emailed Larry Harris on the prospect of bringing in Tractor before his health issues surfaced.

In regards to roster flexability and depth, particularly in the frontcourt, I think Larry Harris has resigned himself to taking the wait and see approach. Many Bucks fans are speculating that Mason and Smith will be used as trade bait for a frontline power forward prospect. I think Larry Harris is very comfortable where we are now and has confidence in Bobby Simmons at the 4 (ughh) and the development of second round pick Ersan Ilyasova.

Look for the Bucks roster to stay virtually the same through the top 8 players for the next two seasons. Larry will try to draft another pf prospect in 2006 and reserve our MLE until the summer of 2007 when the contracts of Mason, Smith, Ford, and Williams (24 million) come off of the Bucks. There are some cap holds involved so they won't have the full 24 million to make a run at Lebron James. If the Bucks are a strong playoff contender at the time, I expect Larry to re-sign Ford (in any event...barring health) and Mason. Joe Smith may be signed to a fair market deal as well.

 

[PIP]

Hey LePip,

Is that the playoff bound Carmelo Anthony's trophy that Lebron is babysitting? :chuckles:

No, In fact, it was Ford's before he broke his neck.

 

[Karma]

The Bucks four spot is a weakness, but be patient TJ, you will have a lottery pick to fill that need next summer.

 

[TJ_4_CV31]

The Bucks four spot is a weakness, but be patient TJ, you will have a lottery pick to fill that need next summer.

:chuckles: :chuckles:

Where Cleveland has Gooden, Marshall, Varejao, and Henderson......

.....the Bucks have Smith, Simmons, Kukoc, and Gadzuric/Bogut.


We'll be fine mister.