Baker Mayfield: Fire The Cannons

[amil99]

Great post. And honestly in the last decade we have seen non elite QBs win super bowls

Peyton was AWFUL in Denver’s super bowl run. Flacco and Foles are backup level guys who got hot at the right time. Eli is not out of range of what Baker can do

would we rather have a Mahommes? Yeah, everyone would. Do you NEED one to win? No

I disagree with Flacco in his prime being a backup level guy. He wasn’t elite but he was fringe pro bowl level and like Eli his ceiling for a short period of times(like a postseason run) was that of an elite QB like the ones mentioned. Idk if Baker will ever be that explosive it seems like getting a 250+ yard game from him is a struggle

 

[Bob_The_Cat]

I was unsure where to put this, but since its about Baker, it made sense. Its also a genuine question, not to start some heated debate.

Many people are seeing Baker as more of a game manager going forward than an MVP candidate we thought he'd be just over a year ago. He's not likely to be Russ Wilson or Drew Brees. He's more likely to be a slightly better Case Keenum...and that's fine (better than anyone else we've had since 1999). That said, should the Browns be proactive about finding a franchise guy? Sit back and see if one stumbles into their lap? Roll with Baker *as* the franchise guy? What would you do? What should the Browns do?

I have a feeling Carson Wentz will be available in the offseason. Philly drafted Hurts and Wentz has never really seemed welcome there even when he was playing like the MVP. I'd be interested in seeing what he'd do behind a good OL and the weapons we have, but his extension is about to kick in next year so I'm not sure I'd want to test that experiment. That being said, the contract might drive his price down slightly, though I'd imagine there'd be a number of teams lining up for him.

The issue the Browns have is Baker is eligible for an extension after this year, right? I don't really want to pay a 'game manager' the type of money he's inevitably going to ask for, but given the way the offense is currently constructed I don't think we can roll the dice on a rookie QB unless it's Fields or Lawrence.

So the answer is it's complicated. With what we've seen from him so far this year, I'd guess he winds up playing well enough to get another season next year but not well enough to get an extension at the end of the year.

 

[Vee-Rex]

Baker literally had 1 (or maybe 2 if you count the intentional grounding) terrible play last week vs Cincinnati and you have Browns fans on the verge of crucifying him because of it.

Like... you guys realize even the most elite QBs are typically going to make multiple mistakes per game, right? Again, I'm not against criticizing him - I've done it plenty myself. I just think the labeling him as 'just a game manager' and talk of moving on from him because of that is pretty ridiculous at this point.

Edit: If we're going to base our offense around Chubb/Hunt and let that be the focal point, practically any QB you bring in not named Mahomes is gonna be a 'game manager' if they only get 20 passing attempts. I mean, come on - what exactly are we looking for here?

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

I have a feeling Carson Wentz will be available in the offseason. Philly drafted Hurts and Wentz has never really seemed welcome there even when he was playing like the MVP. I'd be interested in seeing what he'd do behind a good OL and the weapons we have, but his extension is about to kick in next year so I'm not sure I'd want to test that experiment. That being said, the contract might drive his price down slightly, though I'd imagine there'd be a number of teams lining up for him.

The issue the Browns have is Baker is eligible for an extension after this year, right? I don't really want to pay a 'game manager' the type of money he's inevitably going to ask for, but given the way the offense is currently constructed I don't think we can roll the dice on a rookie QB unless it's Fields or Lawrence.

So the answer is it's complicated. With what we've seen from him so far this year, I'd guess he winds up playing well enough to get another season next year but not well enough to get an extension at the end of the year.

If you don't like the way Baker has looked this year, you're really not going to like Wentz.

 

[Sebastian]

Wentz isn't lighting the world on fire. I think injuries are taking their toll.

 

[Lee]

Baker literally had 1 (or maybe 2 if you count the intentional grounding) terrible play last week vs Cincinnati and you have Browns fans on the verge of crucifying him because of it.

Like... you guys realize even the most elite QBs are typically going to make multiple mistakes per game, right? Again, I'm not against criticizing him - I've done it plenty myself. I just think the labeling him as 'just a game manager' and talk of moving on from him because of that is pretty ridiculous at this point.

Edit: If we're going to base our offense around Chubb/Hunt and let that be the focal point, practically any QB you bring in not named Mahomes is gonna be a 'game manager' if they only get 20 passing attempts. I mean, come on - what exactly are we looking for here?

I agree and I hate the term game manager. The last 2 weeks our running game dominated. Baker through one really bad pass that wasnt intercepted. He completed 16 out of 23 passes and 2 touchdowns. Yardage didnt matter, lots of short fields because of the turnovers. Time of possession was 34-26 minutes in favor of the Browns yet yardage was about the same.

Someone mentioned we would have lost if not for all the turnovers. Really dont know that, our offense never really got a chance to get going completely because of all the short fields we were working with. The time of possession being in our favor shows how dominate our running game was and how good our defense was at getting turnovers.

Baker didnt need to pass the ball allot for the 2nd straight week which is good, because the game plan was to run the ball and possess the ball. But when Baker was asked to throw the ball he was good. One bad pass in 23 attempts, a couple of over throws which is normal for any QB including Brees. 2 TD's, no fumbles, no picks, I mean he completed 70% of his passes, took only 2 sacks against a dominate line, no turnovers...i just dont see any need for critisism.

 

[CBBI]

I agree and I hate the term game manager. The last 2 weeks our running game dominated. Baker through one really bad pass that wasnt intercepted. He completed 16 out of 23 passes and 2 touchdowns. Yardage didnt matter, lots of short fields because of the turnovers. Time of possession was 34-26 minutes in favor of the Browns yet yardage was about the same.

Someone mentioned we would have lost if not for all the turnovers. Really dont know that, our offense never really got a chance to get going completely because of all the short fields we were working with. The time of possession being in our favor shows how dominate our running game was and how good our defense was at getting turnovers.

Baker didnt need to pass the ball allot for the 2nd straight week which is good, because the game plan was to run the ball and possess the ball. But when Baker was asked to throw the ball he was good. One bad pass in 23 attempts, a couple of over throws which is normal for any QB including Brees. 2 TD's, no fumbles, no picks, I mean he completed 70% of his passes, took only 2 sacks against a dominate line, no turnovers...i just dont see any need for critisism.

Criticism of Mayfield after yesterday is basically a process v. result debate.

The results may have been good, but the process did not appear to be dramatically improved from where it was week 1.

I ask myself the following question when it comes to Mayfield.

“If I desperately need the QB to come through with a positive play against a good defense and the play caller can’t scheme him something wide open, is he capable of making it happen?”

And right now, when it comes to making big plays against heavy pressure or making big plays into tight windows defensively, I just don’t believe Mayfield showed that much at all last year and has not really shown that capability yet this year either.

Doesn’t mean he will never be able to do it. Doesn’t mean the Browns can’t still beat teams with him not doing it because they clearly can.

I am just not confident in Mayfield’s ability to go out and actively help the Browns win a game with high end quarterback back play at this point.

But it’s a long season and there’s plenty of time for him to keep improving as he gets more comfortable with the system.

 

[Vee-Rex]

Criticism of Mayfield after yesterday is basically a process v. result debate.

The results may have been good, but the process did not appear to be dramatically improved from where it was week 1.

I ask myself the following question when it comes to Mayfield.

“If I desperately need the QB to come through with a positive play against a good defense and the play caller can’t scheme him something wide open, is he capable of making it happen?”

And right now, when it comes to making big plays against heavy pressure or making big plays into tight windows defensively, I just don’t believe Mayfield showed that much at all last year and has not really shown that capability yet this year either.

Doesn’t mean he will never be able to do it. Doesn’t mean the Browns can’t still beat teams with him not doing it because they clearly can.

I am just not confident in Mayfield’s ability to go out and actively help the Browns win a game with high end quarterback back play at this point.

But it’s a long season and there’s plenty of time for him to keep improving as he gets more comfortable with the system.

You don't have to be confident but he has already made several huge 3rd down and 4th down plays when we needed them most. The 3rd and 12'ish to OBJ, the 4th and 7 to Hooper, the 4th down vs. the Bengals to Landry, etc... but those plays get ignored by the fans.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Like... you guys realize even the most elite QBs are typically going to make multiple mistakes per game, right? Again, I'm not against criticizing him - I've done it plenty myself. I just think the labeling him as 'just a game manager' and talk of moving on from him because of that is pretty ridiculous at this point.

Edit: If we're going to base our offense around Chubb/Hunt and let that be the focal point, practically any QB you bring in not named Mahomes is gonna be a 'game manager' if they only get 20 passing attempts. I mean, come on - what exactly are we looking for here?

That's what gets me as well. There is nothing wrong with pointing out the mistakes made by him or by any other QB. But in terms of evaluating what he can become, It just seems there is a bit too much of a "zero defects" standard being applied to a 3rd year QB who everyone acknowledges has been in absolutely shitty situations for his development.

And when I think of "game manager", I think Trent Dilfer in 2000. So I think consigning Mayfield to that level of performance at this point in his career is wildly premature.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I ask myself the following question when it comes to Mayfield.

“If I desperately need the QB to come through with a positive play against a good defense and the play caller can’t scheme him something wide open, is he capable of making it happen?”

And right now, when it comes to making big plays against heavy pressure or making big plays into tight windows defensively, I just don’t believe Mayfield showed that much at all last year and has not really shown that capability yet this year either.

Doesn’t mean he will never be able to do it. Doesn’t mean the Browns can’t still beat teams with him not doing it because they clearly can.

I am just not confident in Mayfield’s ability to go out and actively help the Browns win a game with high end quarterback back play at this point.

But it’s a long season and there’s plenty of time for him to keep improving as he gets more comfortable with the system.

I am not confident in any quarterback's ability to make a big play against a good defense when the coordinator cannot scheme anything open, and the QB will be forced to make a big throw under pressure into a tight window. I'd submit that every single QB is more likely than not to fail in that situation. Now, some of them will succeed more often than others, and that highlight will be tweeted, etc., but teams have punters and field goal kickers on their rosters for a reason.

Anyway, I'd disagree that Baker has not shown he is capable of doing that. In fact, PFF ranked him third in the entire NFL in terms of making "big-time throws" in his first two seasons, behind Wilson and Mahomes.

Russell Wilson beats out Patrick Mahomes in key PFF passing stat

Russell Wilson has a claim for being the top QB that makes the biggest throws when it counts. Patrick Mahomes is a reigning Super Bowl champ who took home ...

fansided.com

.

I'd suggest that his biggest problem actually is the opposite -- he is very capable of making big-time throws, but he also is making poor reads that lead him to throw more interceptions. And that's the kind of thing that he may -- or may not -- reduce over time as he becomes more familiar with the offense and doesn't have to think so much about the throw on every play.

To be clear, I'm not saying that will happen. I'm just saying that I don't think some folks are taking into account the difficulty of the coaching/scheming/situations in which he's been placed his first few years, and are perhaps underestimating the effect that has on his processing.

ETA: Just going to repeat the excellent point made by @The Wizard of Moz upthread about Josh Allen's emergence in Buffalo, and point out that didn't happen until Allen's third year under Sean McDermott as HC, and third year with Brian Daboll as his OC running that same offense.

 

[Kbiz]

I don’t think Baker played nearly as well as his box score numbers would indicate. He missed some throws. He still struggles so badly with any kind of pressure and he should have had another mind numbingly bad interception that OBJ basically bailed him out on.

But at the end of the day it’s hard to be *that* upset with nearly 70% completions and 2 touchdowns to 0 turnovers.

I read on Twitter, I think it may have been Jake Burns who said it, but it’s becoming clear that the Browns with this pair of running backs, this offensive line and Stefanski’s scheme can win games *with* Baker Mayfield, but it’s not clear if they can win games *because* of Baker Mayfield yet.

Will be really interesting to see how he continues to progress as the year unfolds.

Which is a stupid thing to say because during Baker's rookie season, we won games because of him. I've said it till I am blue in the face - Baker has all the tools to be a guy that can win you a gritty game with his arm. He has touch, he has above average arm strength, and he's mobile enough to make something out of nothing. He needs to work on his mental game, which I hope isn't fractured to the point of no return due to the ineptitude the FO exhibited the last two years. Leaning on a strong running game while he can work on small things to get better is the perfect scenario for Mayfield right now. This season will tell us a lot IMO.

 

[Kbiz]

Wentz isn't lighting the world on fire. I think injuries are taking their toll.

Yep Wentz' mobility is shot. A pocket passer he is not.

 

[CBBI]

Which is a stupid thing to say because during Baker's rookie season, we won games because of him. I've said it till I am blue in the face - Baker has all the tools to be a guy that can win you a gritty game with his arm. He has touch, he has above average arm strength, and he's mobile enough to make something out of nothing. He needs to work on his mental game, which I hope isn't fractured to the point of no return due to the ineptitude the FO exhibited the last two years. Leaning on a strong running game while he can work on small things to get better is the perfect scenario for Mayfield right now. This season will tell us a lot IMO.

I get what you're saying, but I'd counter by asking...

What's more relevant to the 2020 Cleveland Browns? Things Baker did two years and two head coaches ago when teams had very limited NFL tape on him? Or the things he's doing right now now that the NFL has a much better idea of what he's capable of?

I don't think he's a lost cause by any means. If Mayfield can cut his turnovers in half, that alone would mean a couple of extra wins.

I'm just not nearly as optimistic as I once was that he's definitely going to be an elite QB. I see most of the same problems he really struggled with last year that are being masked by a much better offensive scheme and a better OL.

 

[CBBI]

Anyway, I'd disagree that Baker has not shown he is capable of doing that. In fact, PFF ranked him third in the entire NFL in terms of making "big-time throws" in his first two seasons, behind Wilson and Mahomes.

Let me rephrase. I'm not confident in Mayfield's ability to consistently make big-time throws without a huge number of turnovers like Wilson and Mahomes are capable of doing.

 

[Kbiz]

I get what you're saying, but I'd counter by asking...

What's more relevant to the 2020 Cleveland Browns? Things Baker did two years and two head coaches ago when teams had very limited NFL tape on him? Or the things he's doing right now now that the NFL has a much better idea of what he's capable of?

I don't think he's a lost cause by any means. If Mayfield can cut his turnovers in half, that alone would mean a couple of extra wins.

I'm just not nearly as optimistic as I once was that he's definitely going to be an elite QB. I see most of the same problems he really struggled with last year that are being masked by a much better offensive scheme and a better OL.

I get it and I am not necessarily saying he is going to be elite but for countering sake, I just think if he had been in a offensive system like this surrounded by competent offensive coaches the last two years, he probably isn't struggling with read progression and bailing out prematurely as much.

Last year was just terrible for his development and he deserves a bit more slack for that. He could've made more of an effort to get better in the off-season but his coach literally told him not to focus on football. Bad preparation coupled with just a terrible coaching situation did major damage to his game.