Baker Mayfield: Fire The Cannons

[Lee]

You can't really hold that against him. I mean, so did half of the rest of his team, including the locker room attendants, as well as most of the guys from the Armco Heating and Cooling Rec team. @PIP

Or maybe I took you wrong, and you're really bragging rather than complaining.

You would think with as immobile as Rivers is, you would have thought @The Oi 's wife could have gotten away.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

You would think with as immobile as Rivers is, you would have thought @The Oi 's wife could have gotten away.

Get away? Nah, she just hung in there and took the sack.

 

[Lee]

Get away? Nah, she just hung in there and took the sack.

Roughing the passer?

Illegal use of the hands to the face?

 

[UDcleveland]

You can improve someone's technique, scheme around their weaknesses, and watch them learn from experience. But it's hard to change someone's attitude and leadership ability. Really hard. Baker changed and he did it himself. I'm sure he found inspiration from different people--definitely Stefanski--but he became a different person this season. I'll admit I wasn't sure it could happen. But he's impressed me with his resolve and the fact that he gives shout outs to his OL and gets so damn excited for other players' success. He even thanked the equipment folks one time. That kind of leadership is infectious. All the kudos in the world to him.

I think the leadership qualities have always been there, but he’s improved on the field, and you need both to be a franchise QB. It’s hard to be a credible leader if you’re out there giving up the ball and letting everyone down on Sundays. Great to see him making better decisions and playing well consistently.

 

[CBBI]

See, here's the point of contention I have (and had back when it was actually happening). Fans of sports teams are prisoners of the moment. They take a bad performance and use it as the end-all be-all form of judgment. A player is typically only as good as his last game or even last play to some people.

People were down on Baker after his performance week 2 against the Bengals when he had about 2 awful passes (but shredded them otherwise). I think he had a great performance and I saw signs/hints of an improved Baker.

But it wasn't until the Colts game (especially the 1st half) when I was convinced he WAS BETTER and steadily improving. The way he dissected their zone defense, looking off defenders, timing his passes, footwork, accuracy, and pocket presence (stepping up) was a Baker I had never quite seen before. I didn't just watch the game, but watched the film of each pass three times. And this improvement was completely lost on people the very next week. It's why I was in this very thread arguing with people mentioning Matt Ryan, Jameis Winston, Matthew Stafford, and Dwayne Haskins.

Baker is going to have more 2+ INT games in his career. It's going to happen. But improvement is not linear. Sometimes you take two steps forward before taking one back. The Steelers game was an example of a well-prepared exotic defense that MANY good and exceptional QBs struggle against. Sometimes you get your ass beat by the Chessmaster, improve against others, get your ass beat by the Chessmaster, improve against others, etc... until suddenly you're not JUST getting your ass beat by the Chessmaster. Maybe you do well, or dominate, then do bad - but it happens in a way that you've improved enough to flip some of those performances into the other direction. No one is ever gonna dominate a good defense or even a bad one endlessly.

And then the bad weather games hit and the doubt in Baker suddenly reset... and I'm watching the film and just thinking, "Dude... he's balling." His decisions were precise and sound, and while he inexplicably took a dip in accuracy (he has never had real accuracy issues in his football career so I was kinda surprised to see people basically labeling him as inaccurate), I didn't any concerns at all.

TLDR: Maybe from your perspective he looked like the same skittish/rattled QB at the time, and that no one could have realistically expected this level of improvement. But that's objectively untrue for me. I thought he made some mistakes and struggled with pressure against Pittsburgh week 6, but I never thought he was "the same" QB we saw last year. I had already witnessed massive improvements and knew a bad week or 2 doesn't mean much. And I expected it to show.

Very good post.

I have some counterpoints.

Mayfield was very good in weeks 2, 3 and 4 from a QB rating/QBR/YPA perspective, but I don't think his actual play was as good as his numbers in any of those games. The Browns were extremely conservative with their play calling in the passing game and went out of their way to limit Baker to a lot of very simple and quick one-read type of throws.

Very few times in the first month plus of the season did Stefanski and Van Pelt trust Baker to survey the field and make multiple reads even with what was at the time an A++ rushing attack and an offensive line that was totally healthy and has really held up pass protection wise all year.

They won 3 games in a row early in the year where Mayfield averaged 17 completions and 180 yards a game. I'm really glad they were able to win those games, but that's certainly not a sustainable way to have success.

In my personal opinion, the only truly impressive half Baker had in the first six games that showed real tangible improvement in the areas he was *really* lacking in 2019 (dropping his eyes against pressure, slow processing off his first read, a refusal to consistently climb the pocket being the three main ones) was the first half against the Colts and he immediately followed that up with a real stinker of a second half.

The Pittsburgh game, to me, was a culmination of what had been a 6 week build up. It was the first defense Mayfield had faced since Week 1 that A. consistently got pressure and B. combined that pressure with a lot of disguised coverages. The Colts have a really good defense, but almost exclusively play a cover 2 zone and almost never blitz, so it's a very different presnap defense to diagnose than early season Pittsburgh was.

At really no point (outside of 1st half Indy) in the first six weeks did I watch Mayfield and think "man the problems of last year have definitely improved a ton!" - If you did, then I tip my cap to you because I just really didn't see it at all.

It actually started to turn for me during the bad weather games, not that Bengals game which was essentially 7 on 7 between him and Burrow. His stats weren't very good in any of those bad weather games, but conditions were rotten and I thought a lot of the subtle things he was struggling with really started to improve. Particularly from a pocket presence standpoint.

Then once the weather cleared up, all bets were off. The running game wasn't as effective, but the coaching staff opened things up significantly in the passing game. Baker looked remarkably more comfortable and he's been awesome ever since.

 

[PIP]

You can't really hold that against him. I mean, so did half of the rest of his team, including the locker room attendants, as well as most of the guys from the Armco Heating and Cooling Rec team. @PIP

Or maybe I took you wrong, and you're really bragging rather than complaining.

Yeah. Illegal use of the hands to the face. She liked it rough...

 

[Lee]

Yeah. Illegal use of the hands to the face. She liked it rough...

Suck it Trebek.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Very good post.

I have some counterpoints.

Mayfield was very good in weeks 2, 3 and 4 from a QB rating/QBR/YPA perspective, but I don't think his actual play was as good as his numbers in any of those games. The Browns were extremely conservative with their play calling in the passing game and went out of their way to limit Baker to a lot of very simple and quick one-read type of throws.

Very few times in the first month plus of the season did Stefanski and Van Pelt trust Baker to survey the field and make multiple reads even with what was at the time an A++ rushing attack and an offensive line that was totally healthy and has really held up pass protection wise all year.

They won 3 games in a row early in the year where Mayfield averaged 17 completions and 180 yards a game. I'm really glad they were able to win those games, but that's certainly not a sustainable way to have success.

In my personal opinion, the only truly impressive half Baker had in the first six games that showed real tangible improvement in the areas he was *really* lacking in 2019 (dropping his eyes against pressure, slow processing off his first read, a refusal to consistently climb the pocket being the three main ones) was the first half against the Colts and he immediately followed that up with a real stinker of a second half.

The Pittsburgh game, to me, was a culmination of what had been a 6 week build up. It was the first defense Mayfield had faced since Week 1 that A. consistently got pressure and B. combined that pressure with a lot of disguised coverages. The Colts have a really good defense, but almost exclusively play a cover 2 zone and almost never blitz, so it's a very different presnap defense to diagnose than early season Pittsburgh was.

At really no point (outside of 1st half Indy) in the first six weeks did I watch Mayfield and think "man the problems of last year have definitely improved a ton!" - If you did, then I tip my cap to you because I just really didn't see it at all.

It actually started to turn for me during the bad weather games, not that Bengals game which was essentially 7 on 7 between him and Burrow. His stats weren't very good in any of those bad weather games, but conditions were rotten and I thought a lot of the subtle things he was struggling with really started to improve. Particularly from a pocket presence standpoint.

Then once the weather cleared up, all bets were off. The running game wasn't as effective, but the coaching staff opened things up significantly in the passing game. Baker looked remarkably more comfortable and he's been awesome ever since.

I will just say that one of the things I've seen both Baker and Kevin mention repeatedly -- and I mean basically every time either was asked why the offense improved so much during the course of the season -- is the value of the bye week. They apparently spent that week going through the playbook, tossed out the stuff Baker didn't like, and decided to focus more on the stuff he did like. That's one reason most people saw a pretty big jump in his performance after that -- before that, he'd play better or worse depending upon how much of the active playbook/gameplan for a given week was something with which he was comfortable.

Prior to that point on the field, he looked to me like a guy that simply was not comfortable with what he was sometimes asked to do. He didn't always know where his receivers were supposed to be, the timing on all the routes, etc., and he played like that. He bailed early a lot because -- I believe -- he knew that he could not go through his progressions as fast as he needed, or didn't like the options he knew would be there. So to buy himself time, he just bailed a lot.

Once they sat down and had some extended strategic play-calling conversations, I think they were both on the same page. Baker started showing confidence in the people around him and in his own ability to execute what he was asked to do. That meant he relaxed more, and his footwork and climbing of the pocket looked like that of a guy who was confident.

80% of that normally would have happened before the first regular season game during the offseason/preseason. Because that pretty much didn't happen, they rather desperately needed that break from weekly game-planning to have more strategic discussions. I think second-half Baker was much closer to the guy we would have seen all along had we had a normal offseason.

 

[ZooCrewDude]

See, here's the point of contention I have (and had back when it was actually happening). Fans of sports teams are prisoners of the moment. They take a bad performance and use it as the end-all be-all form of judgment. A player is typically only as good as his last game or even last play to some people.

People were down on Baker after his performance week 2 against the Bengals when he had about 2 awful passes (but shredded them otherwise). I think he had a great performance and I saw signs/hints of an improved Baker.

But it wasn't until the Colts game (especially the 1st half) when I was convinced he WAS BETTER and steadily improving. The way he dissected their zone defense, looking off defenders, timing his passes, footwork, accuracy, and pocket presence (stepping up) was a Baker I had never quite seen before. I didn't just watch the game, but watched the film of each pass three times. And this improvement was completely lost on people the very next week. It's why I was in this very thread arguing with people mentioning Matt Ryan, Jameis Winston, Matthew Stafford, and Dwayne Haskins.

Baker is going to have more 2+ INT games in his career. It's going to happen. But improvement is not linear. Sometimes you take two steps forward before taking one back. The Steelers game was an example of a well-prepared exotic defense that MANY good and exceptional QBs struggle against. Sometimes you get your ass beat by the Chessmaster, improve against others, get your ass beat by the Chessmaster, improve against others, etc... until suddenly you're not JUST getting your ass beat by the Chessmaster. Maybe you do well, or dominate, then do bad - but it happens in a way that you've improved enough to flip some of those performances into the other direction. No one is ever gonna dominate a good defense or even a bad one endlessly.

And then the bad weather games hit and the doubt in Baker suddenly reset... and I'm watching the film and just thinking, "Dude... he's balling." His decisions were precise and sound, and while he inexplicably took a dip in accuracy (he has never had real accuracy issues in his football career so I was kinda surprised to see people basically labeling him as inaccurate), I didn't any concerns at all.

TLDR: Maybe from your perspective he looked like the same skittish/rattled QB at the time, and that no one could have realistically expected this level of improvement. But that's objectively untrue for me. I thought he made some mistakes and struggled with pressure against Pittsburgh week 6, but I never thought he was "the same" QB we saw last year. I had already witnessed massive improvements and knew a bad week or 2 doesn't mean much. And I expected it to show.

I agree with plenty of the above... but if you watched each of his performances (even the 'average' ones, statistically speaking) and didn't see any noticeable issues with accuracy or his presence in the pocket then you had your mind made up on Baker before observing.

I'm wildly impressed with how much he's grown this year (he's literally answered every question that I had in the early goings of the season)... but it wasn't all there early on. There were alarming inconsistencies that carried over from the 2019 season. To all those that said 'give him time, be patient, let him get comfortable with the system, he'll be the guy'... kudos to you because I was nervous he'd never figure it out and you were right to summon your patience as a fan. But to those who say 'nothing to see here, everything is fine, he's our franchise guy moving forward' early in the season; you were buried by a mountain of bias.

 

[Vee-Rex]

I agree with plenty of the above... but if you watched each of his performances (even the 'average' ones, statistically speaking) and didn't see any noticeable issues with accuracy or his presence in the pocket then you had your mind made up on Baker before observing.

I'm wildly impressed with how much he's grown this year (he's literally answered every question that I had in the early goings of the season)... but it wasn't all there early on. There were alarming inconsistencies that carried over from the 2019 season. To all those that said 'give him time, be patient, let him get comfortable with the system, he'll be the guy'... kudos to you because I was nervous he'd never figure it out and you were right to summon your patience as a fan. But to those who say 'nothing to see here, everything is fine, he's our franchise guy moving forward' early in the season; you were buried by a mountain of bias.

I saw footwork issues, hesitation/hitching, and not completely trusting the o-line. I remember thinking in one of the earlier games that once Baker started trusting our much improved o-line, he's gonna turn it around. It's a dominoe effect - you trust the line, you keep your eyes down the field more, step into the pocket more, and generally make better plays. So for me, the issues that people saw were issues I didn't think would continue.

I think there's a clear difference between the early-2020 Baker and 2019 Baker and distinguishing between the two gave me confidence. I'm speaking outside the context of Stefanski's brilliant offense here. Even in spread offense, there's a clear difference. 2019 Baker was slinging into coverage - trying to force completions with his arm talent and believing having talent at the WR position would make up for it. Lots of mistimed slants and high balls off receivers hands, etc... it didn't take long at all for defenses to generally have him (and Freddie's offense) figured out pre-snap.

Early-2020 Baker, even with a decreased role, was far more intentional with how he tried attacking defenses, even in spread formations where the defense wasn't collapsing on the run. Even when he struggled understanding leverage (still not his biggest strength even now but he has improved), even when he was inaccurate and very jittery - he seemed to make better decisions. He seemed to have a little more focus on dissecting a defense, rather than simply going to his most talented players. He absolutely forced stuff into coverage early this year and we all saw remnants of his 2019 self, but it wasn't quite frequent early this year.

Like... the improvement was there, it truly was. It just wasn't consistent enough to be blindingly obvious to anyone sitting down, chugging a beer, and watching the game.

 

[2 For The Brew]

Rivers is a religious nut who is personally trying to populate the world by himself and never cusses. Not sure I agree with the comp.

Lots of pro athletes have sired a bunch of kids. The real reason Rivers doesn’t cuss is when he looks at his paycheck he doesn’t see most of it devoured by child support payments. Being a “religious nut” does have some advantages.

I wonder which pro athlete has the record for the most $ of child support garnished in a year.

 

[Surge]

Lots of pro athletes have sired a bunch of kids. The real reason Rivers doesn’t cuss is when he looks at his paycheck he doesn’t see most of it devoured by child support payments. Being a “religious nut” does have some advantages.

I wonder which pro athlete has the record for the most $ of child support garnished in a year.

Antonio Cromartie?

"Former NFL Player Antonio Cromartie Must Pay $336,000 per Year to Support 8 of His 14 Kids"

Former NFL Player Antonio Cromartie Must Pay $336,000 per Year to Support 8 of His 14 Kids

Most NFL players make a lot of money during their career. But for Antonio Cromartie, he's had to spend a lot of that money on child support .

www.cheatsheet.com

 

[MD13]

I will just say that one of the things I've seen both Baker and Kevin mention repeatedly -- and I mean basically every time either was asked why the offense improved so much during the course of the season -- is the value of the bye week. They apparently spent that week going through the playbook, tossed out the stuff Baker didn't like, and decided to focus more on the stuff he did like. That's one reason most people saw a pretty big jump in his performance after that -- before that, he'd play better or worse depending upon how much of the active playbook/gameplan for a given week was something with which he was comfortable.

Prior to that point on the field, he looked to me like a guy that simply was not comfortable with what he was sometimes asked to do. He didn't always know where his receivers were supposed to be, the timing on all the routes, etc., and he played like that. He bailed early a lot because -- I believe -- he knew that he could not go through his progressions as fast as he needed, or didn't like the options he knew would be there. So to buy himself time, he just bailed a lot.

Once they sat down and had some extended strategic play-calling conversations, I think they were both on the same page. Baker started showing confidence in the people around him and in his own ability to execute what he was asked to do. That meant he relaxed more, and his footwork and climbing of the pocket looked like that of a guy who was confident.

80% of that normally would have happened before the first regular season game during the offseason/preseason. Because that pretty much didn't happen, they rather desperately needed that break from weekly game-planning to have more strategic discussions. I think second-half Baker was much closer to the guy we would have seen all along had we had a normal offseason.

I remember how Stefanski specifically said that Baker was "ready to ascend" in an interview immediately after the bye week. Maybe it was taken out of context/poor word choice put more emphasis on it than he intended, but he's usually so vanilla in interviews and to that point really tried to put as little pressure on Baker as possible. Seemed to me like he saw something then and was really confident in where Baker was.

 

[Ohdang]

Antonio Cromartie?

"Former NFL Player Antonio Cromartie Must Pay $336,000 per Year to Support 8 of His 14 Kids"

Former NFL Player Antonio Cromartie Must Pay $336,000 per Year to Support 8 of His 14 Kids

Most NFL players make a lot of money during their career. But for Antonio Cromartie, he's had to spend a lot of that money on child support .

www.cheatsheet.com

Since he said pro athlete and not just NFL player, I'm tossing my hat in the ring for Shawn Kemp

 

[Bob_The_Cat]

Anyone feel like eating some crow?

@Bob_The_Cat @Los216 @adam81king ?

Still not sure why people think criticizing someone’s play and asking him to get better at doing certain things is the same as saying he’s never going to be able to become a franchise quarterback.

I frequently said we needed to give it until the end of the year to really get a read on him moving forward. That’s why I stopped posting in the Baker thread like 5-6 weeks ago. Why people keep bringing this up or giving me an @ saying I trashed Baker is beyond me.

He improved in every area I hoped and then some. I’m happy he’s the guy. I never actually wanted to go searching for a new QB. I only ever discussed options in the event Baker wasn’t the guy.