• Changing RCF's index page, please click on "Forums" to access the forums.

Browns GM: Andrew Berry it is.

Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Who Do Want the Browns to Hire as Head Coach?

  • Josh McDaniels OC-Patriots

    Votes: 52 33.1%
  • Kevin Stefanski OC-Vikings (DePo Certified)

    Votes: 88 56.1%
  • Robert "The Napoleon of Motivators" Saleh DC-49ers

    Votes: 20 12.7%
  • Greg "ED Pill" Roman OC-City I Shall Not Name

    Votes: 2 1.3%
  • Eric "The Enemy" Bieniemy OC-Chiefs

    Votes: 2 1.3%
  • Brian Daboll OC-Bills

    Votes: 1 0.6%
  • Urban "Hear No Evil, See No Evil" Meyer (Formerly) HC-OSU

    Votes: 5 3.2%
  • Bill Cowher (Formerly) HC-Strongsville

    Votes: 8 5.1%
  • Jim "Use the" Schwartz DC-Iggles

    Votes: 1 0.6%
  • Other

    Votes: 2 1.3%

  • Total voters
    157
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.
The risk you take with McCarthy simply boils down to offensive playcalling. The guy is a great delegator and, outside of his last two seasons, was beloved by his team. But the question is if he really has changed with the game, or if all of this is real when he’s a free agent, but that old habits die hard.

The other issue is, if McCarthy flops, where do you go next? Improvement is not linear. This season has shown us that having 7 wins the year prior and more talent does not equal eight or more wins. So if you bring in McCarthy, win seven games, then what’s your next step? Fire Dorsey, draft another QB, and start over?

If the Browns hire McCarthy then I’d like to see him delegate all playcalling. Bring in a young OC that McCarthy works well and run a lot of motion, 12 formation, 21 formation, and 22 formation. Then bring in a DC that excels at using coverages to generate pressure. Otherwise, I’ll be very hesitant that McCarthy reverts back to what got him fired the second that pressure hits.

Few things...

-I'm not sure McCarthy was all that great of a delegator in Green Bay. He was their play caller every year except 2015 and he took playcalling back before that season even ended. The following offseason he somewhat famously said he'd never give up playcalling again the rest of his career.

-I don't think any NFL team should be making head coach hires with "what do we do if this coach flops?" as a consideration whatsoever. You hire a guy expecting him to succeed. If he fails, you deal with that when it happens.

-Not all records are made equal. If Kitchens gets fired, it's less about the fact he went 7-9 and more about the fact he seems highly incompetent at several aspects of being a head coach. He appears to have little respect from his own locker room and has seen guys quit on him in his very first year. That's a really bad sign. If McCarthy made proper coaching decisions, got his team to play hard and play disciplined the whole season, but went 7-9 next year because of injuries, bad luck, tough schedule whatever -- you give him and Dorsey another year to get it right.

-McCarthy would 100% call plays. I'm certain of that. The real question I'm wondering is if he's actually had an Andy Reid-like career renaissance/awakening and is actually going to embrace modern trends or if this is all just lip service. The defensive coordinator hire would be big too. I have a feeling based on the Tom Pelissero and the Peter King articles that Jim Haslett would have a spot on Mike's defensive staff which doesn't exactly thrill me.
 
Lets promote a secondary coach to head coach...whats the worst that could happen?

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but John Harbaugh was a ST coordinator/DB coach before he was hired to be Baltimore's HC and that's working out incredibly well for them.
 
Few things...

-I'm not sure McCarthy was all that great of a delegator in Green Bay. He was their play caller every year except 2015 and he took playcalling back before that season even ended. The following offseason he somewhat famously said he'd never give up playcalling again the rest of his career.

So there actually is a bit of stuff out there about how he gave freedom to DCs and that he let the OC run all of the offensive meetings and create a lot of the game script.


-I don't think any NFL team should be making head coach hires with "what do we do if this coach flops?" as a consideration whatsoever. You hire a guy expecting him to succeed. If he fails, you deal with that when it happens.
Sure they should... in any decision, an organizational leader should evaluate the best, worst, and most-likely scenarios. A guy like Ron Rivera will more than likely not be a "boom", but will also have a higher floor. Freddie was a major boom/bust coach, especially for year one, mainly because he never came anywhere close to this position before and the small sample size he was being evaluated over.

McCarthy is definitely a boom/bust. He's historically been a coach that is shut-off towards players and stubborn, while also finding ways to consistently win. I actually think the playcalling last year was not as huge of a problem for Green Bay as were the coach/QB relationship going stale and Ted Thompson's brutal previous few drafts.





-Not all records are made equal. If Kitchens gets fired, it's less about the fact he went 7-9 and more about the fact he seems highly incompetent at several aspects of being a head coach. He appears to have little respect from his own locker room and has seen guys quit on him in his very first year. That's a really bad sign. If McCarthy made proper coaching decisions, got his team to play hard and play disciplined the whole season, but went 7-9 next year because of injuries, bad luck, tough schedule whatever -- you give him and Dorsey another year to get it right.

Freddie is probably getting fired... I agree. Hell, I do not think he should retain his job. I also think the Dorsey should be fired if he legitimately did not think this was somewhat possible. A HC hired four years before he was ready to be a HC being combined with the largest coaching staff in the NFL, a second year QB, no offensive line, and poor depth were all reasons to expect volatility this season. To that end, I also don't see it as unfathomable, or even unlikely, that Freddie shows significant improvements during his next season as a HC.


-McCarthy would 100% call plays. I'm certain of that. The real question I'm wondering is if he's actually had an Andy Reid-like career renaissance/awakening and is actually going to embrace modern trends or if this is all just lip service. The defensive coordinator hire would be big too. I have a feeling based on the Tom Pelissero and the Peter King articles that Jim Haslett would have a spot on Mike's defensive staff which doesn't exactly thrill me.
How are you certain? Isn't that something nobody - not even McCarthy - know right now?

Agreed on Haslett... though, IIRC, he at least is a versatile playcaller who is not bound by a specific scheme or stye, ala Gregg and Wilks.
 
On his "Inside the Pylon" segment during SNY's Jets pregame show on Sunday, NFL Insider Ralph Vacchiano dropped some knowledge about Jets DC Gregg Williams.
And that news is his "DC" title potentially changing to "HC" next season.
"Two NFL executives told me this week that the job Williams has done with the Jets defense this season should be enough to get him at least some consideration for a head coaching job if enough jobs become available," Vacchiano revealed.


It really make no sense why kitchens wasnt made of as heir apparent as oc to a 61 year old head coach. However.now that the browns have committed to kitchen they have to give him a other season to see if he can learn from his mistakes
 
McCarthy out here trying to get me to love him.

Yes. If a great pure football mind starts to embrace how the game is changing, you start to get excited.

But are we sure McCarthy wants to be here? There were rumblings he turned down the job last year. Again, I have no idea if there is even a single bit of truth to that but there is a common assumption that we can just go out and get him (that may not be the reality of the situation).

There are so many awful coaches out there that the collective head coaching turnover (in this 24 month period), is going to be staggering. Maybe the reason McCarthy declined (if he did), is because we imposed something on him, the most logical thing being Freddie at OC (if I were a betting man). Clearing the deck potentially gets over that hurdle the second time around but will we be the most attractive job? I personally think we will but it remains to be seen which jobs open up.
 
Yes. If a great pure football mind starts to embrace how the game is changing, you start to get excited.

But are we sure McCarthy wants to be here? There were rumblings he turned down the job last year. Again, I have no idea if there is even a single bit of truth to that but there is a common assumption that we can just go out and get him (that may not be the reality of the situation).

There are so many awful coaches out there that the collective head coaching turnover (in this 24 month period), is going to be staggering. Maybe the reason McCarthy declined (if he did), is because we imposed something on him, the most logical thing being Freddie at OC (if I were a betting man). Clearing the deck potentially gets over that hurdle the second time around but will we be the most attractive job? I personally think we will but it remains to be seen which jobs open up.
Formal offer wasnt made. We checked on him, he wanted a year off, and it ended at that.
 
I have a feeling based on the Tom Pelissero and the Peter King articles that Jim Haslett would have a spot on Mike's defensive staff which doesn't exactly thrill me.

As a DC:

Saints / Steelers

1996 - #13 in total yards, #10 in YPP
1997 - #6 in total yards, #8 in YPP
1998 - #12 in total yards, #17 in YPP
1999 - #11 in total yards, #18 in YPP

Rams

2006 - #23 in total yards, #31 in YPP
2007 - #21 in total yards, #28 in YPP
2008 - #28 in total yards, #31 in YPP

Redskins

2010 - #31 in total yards, #30 in YPP
2011 - #13 in total yards, #17 in YPP
2012 - #28 in total yards, #27 in YPP
2013 - #15 in total yards, #26 in YPP
2014 - #20 in total yards, #27 in YPP

Your only hope would be that when he had quality defensive talent (96-99), which I think we do have, he was a solid DC. The Rams and Redskins years intimate that his scheme just really can't compensate for average or below average talent. At least not consistently.

Maybe he has changed his philosophy as well but he's more of a head scratcher to hitch your cart to if you are McCarthy. Haslett is more of a mixed bag type looking at past data.
 
McCarthy’s crew is comprised of people who had rather terrible results.

It’s basically the crux of why I think this all sounds tremendously sketchy, but at the same time intriguing.

Can bad coaches reinvent themselves through data and creative thinking?
 
So there actually is a bit of stuff out there about how he gave freedom to DCs and that he let the OC run all of the offensive meetings and create a lot of the game script.


Good info here. Appreciate the link.

I wonder how many head coach coaches, specifically ones that spent their entire careers before coming a head coach on one side of the ball, heavily delegate responsibilities on the other side of the ball that they're less familiar with. I don't know for sure, but it feels like a lot, right?

Obviously there are outliers to every situation, but generally speaking you see NFL teams try and hire experienced coordinators and position coaches if their head coach is inexperienced. But your super experienced head coaches are a lot more willing to develop younger guys on their staff.

One of the things guys like Belichick and Reid have done remarkably well that is IMO a super underrated thing is develop assistants from within their own staff. Those two guys lose assistants seemingly every single year to various promotions and they typically replace them with someone internally and don't miss a beat.

If Eric Bienemy gets a head coaching gig next month, Reid will have lost three offensive coordinators in five cycles. And Reid will simply promote Mike Kafka to OC and Kafka be a hot candidate for head coaching gigs by 2022.

The other thing I'd say is that article also is from 2015 and McCarthy ended up removing Clements from the play calling duties before that first year even ended.


Sure they should... in any decision, an organizational leader should evaluate the best, worst, and most-likely scenarios. A guy like Ron Rivera will more than likely not be a "boom", but will also have a higher floor. Freddie was a major boom/bust coach, especially for year one, mainly because he never came anywhere close to this position before and the small sample size he was being evaluated over.

McCarthy is definitely a boom/bust. He's historically been a coach that is shut-off towards players and stubborn, while also finding ways to consistently win. I actually think the playcalling last year was not as huge of a problem for Green Bay as were the coach/QB relationship going stale and Ted Thompson's brutal previous few drafts.


We may have to agree to disagree on this one I guess. I think anyone an NFL team decides to hire as head coach, they have to assume that coach is going to be at the very least competent at the job from day 1 or otherwise why are they willing to hire them in the first place?

There shouldn't be a concept of boom or bust when it comes to hiring a head coach. That doesn't make sense to me. John Dorsey needs to hire a coach that he 100% expects to be a great coach. If they end up not being great, so be it, then you make changes. I personally would never make a hire for a head coach based on who has a perceived "high floor".

I do share similar concerns about McCarthy. I wasn't interested in him at all last year. I thought his offensive philosophy (slant/flat on repeat) was completely and utterly stale. But the fact that he's taken a deep dive into what went wrong and where the league has gone is really encouraging to me. If, and this is a very big if, but if he's telling the truth and the year off he took really helped him, I'd be quite interested.

Freddie is probably getting fired... I agree. Hell, I do not think he should retain his job. I also think the Dorsey should be fired if he legitimately did not think this was somewhat possible. A HC hired four years before he was ready to be a HC being combined with the largest coaching staff in the NFL, a second year QB, no offensive line, and poor depth were all reasons to expect volatility this season. To that end, I also don't see it as unfathomable, or even unlikely, that Freddie shows significant improvements during his next season as a HC.

I do think it's possible and even likely that Kitchens would show SOME improvement next year (it would hard to be more incompetent than he's been frankly), but the Browns are not really in a position to be able to wait on him to improve on the job. They are inching closer every year to being in salary cap hell as guys like Garrett, Mayfield and Ward get closer and closer to their second contracts. The time is now basically.

How are you certain? Isn't that something nobody - not even McCarthy - know right now?

Agreed on Haslett... though, IIRC, he at least is a versatile playcaller who is not bound by a specific scheme or stye, ala Gregg and Wilks.

I'm not certain. It's impossible to be sure. But I am pretty confident based on McCarthy literally on record saying “I’ll never do that again."

If Haslett wants to come on board as LB coach or something similar, so be it. But Jim hasn't been a defensive coordinator in the NFL since 2014 and so much has changed in the last 6 years that I would be extremely weary of bringing him in for that role even if he's been studying things relentlessly for the last year.
 
Last edited:
they probably just know he’s not a good coach. They didn’t even bother to interview him.
I know this was a few days back but this is absolutely, unequivocally incorrect.

McCarthy pursued only one job, the New York Jets' head-coaching position, but sources told ESPN on Wednesday that the Jets were expected to hire Adam Gase to fill that position. McCarthy interviewed with the Jets last weekend but declined the chance to interview with the Cleveland Browns.

Now... as to why declined our interview but took New York's? Who knows. My guess would be he liked Darnold better than Baker coming out of college.
 
McCarthy’s crew is comprised of people who had rather terrible results.

It’s basically the crux of why I think this all sounds tremendously sketchy, but at the same time intriguing.

Can bad coaches reinvent themselves through data and creative thinking?

Andy Reid, who may be a complete outlier ultimately, reinvented himself in one offseason.

When the Eagles fired him after 2012, the complaints were eerily similar to the complaints again McCarthy. Inflexible. Stale. Out of touch.

And quite literally in one offseason, Reid made the decision to immerse himself in the spread offense to the point where his team now runs the most explosive and unique offensive system outside of Baltimore in the entire NFL. From a dated, boring West Coast offense to an explosive offense loaded with college and even high school inspired spread concepts in 8 months.

Back to McCarthy...

I wonder how much of his crew being mostly meh names is due to the fact that typically most coaches stay employed year round and rarely have a "gap year" like McCarthy.

Like... based on what I read from the Pelissero article, Haslett would be in the NFL right now if he didn't need ankle fusion surgery. I just think these are guys McCarthy knows who also happened to be out of work at the same time as him. In a different year, it probably would have been three different names, ya know?

I actually wouldn't mind Haslett, Cignetti Jr. or McCurley provided they were placed into roles they were capable of handling. If they're all just position assistants and/or senior assistants, so be it.

But if McCarthy gets a gig and actually hires Haslett and Cignetti Jr. as his coordinators? That's gonna be a pass for me, dawg.
 
Last edited:

Potential DC

dont care about 4-3 vs 3-4 anymore. It’s about the guy calling plays. 4-3 hasn’t doesn’t shit for us. Myles can play in any defense on the line or outside. Everyone else is replaceable.
 

Potential DC

dont care about 4-3 vs 3-4 anymore. It’s about the guy calling plays. 4-3 hasn’t doesn’t shit for us. Myles can play in any defense on the line or outside. Everyone else is replaceable.

Tony Grossi approves.

Maybe the 1980s analysis of defensive scheme isn’t the core issue.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Rubber Rim Job Podcast Video

Episode 3-15: "Cavs Survive and Advance"

Rubber Rim Job Podcast Spotify

Episode 3:15: Cavs Survive and Advance
Top