BROWNS OFF-SEASON 2020

[Soda]

Let's start the Vernon conversation with the fact he isn't worth that price tag by any stretch of the imagination. He is a second defensive end getting #1 defensive end money, and that's why the Browns were able to get him in a trade. His reasonable production was always 6-8 sacks, which he usually did in Miami aside from a few explosive output seasons.

So I would want to restructure Vernon's contract. We know he is better than Chad Thomas. What we don't know is how easily the Browns could convince him of a restructure. He is coming off a disappointment of a season and will turn 30. If he balks at a reasonable restructure, there will be #2 DEs in free agency who will accept a contract closer to 8-10 million a year who could actually be younger.

So, we're looking for cheaper players because....? This is the crux of my issue. You have a solid player in your hand and you're letting it go in hopes of "two in the bush" in a younger and cheaper player who has ultimately shown you less than what Vernon has. Why do the Browns need to pinch pennies at this point if they have a solid contributor? Every year the Steelers seem to be up against the cap ceiling and every year they're able to get the guys they want, so I'm not buying a "there's so many young guys coming up for deals in the next few years!"

 

[MoFlo]

Look, I love Schobert & we'll miss his leadership, but it's important to keep in mind that:

A.) MKC mentioned Schobert's market price is $10M plus, which suggests to me that it's not just "$10M", but more in the $12-15M range.

B.) $10-15M is a lot of money to pay for a non-pass rushing LB

 

[Randolphkeys]

So, we're looking for cheaper players because....? This is the crux of my issue. You have a solid player in your hand and you're letting it go in hopes of "two in the bush" in a younger and cheaper player who has ultimately shown you less than what Vernon has. Why do the Browns need to pinch pennies at this point if they have a solid contributor? Every year the Steelers seem to be up against the cap ceiling and every year they're able to get the guys they want, so I'm not buying a "there's so many young guys coming up for deals in the next few years!"

Neither you or I can talk definitively about what the Browns should do with their cap until the new CBA has been finalized. The league’s salary cap has grown by over $10 million every year since 2013, and the next collective bargaining agreement could dramatically reshape how teams spend on top players. The league went to player union reps with a deal, and they are taking aggressive steps this year because television contracts are up. We should likely see a prolonged labor negotiation.

So do the Browns have more cap space than they expected? Do other teams who thought they were capped actually have more space? Nobody knows until the labor and TV contracts finalize.

So I suggest negotiations with a restructure with Vernon, but I also expect Vernon not to agree to a restructure until all of the unknowns shake out.

 

[Ohio]

2020 is the final year of Vernon's contract, there is no world in which he should be cut right now. Would be absolutely nonsensical.

Any productive player whose contract ends within 2 years should be retained until then, or traded for equal/better value.

This is a ton different than the Schobert situation, who is already a Free Agent and probably looking for a 4 year deal.

Speaking of which, wouldn't Schobert be a good tag candidate? I can't imagine anyone else worth tagging this offseason...

 

[Soda]

Neither you or I can talk definitively about what the Browns should do with their cap until the new CBA has been finalized. The league’s salary cap has grown by over $10 million every year since 2013, and the next collective bargaining agreement could dramatically reshape how teams spend on top players. The league went to player union reps with a deal, and they are taking aggressive steps this year because television contracts are up. We should likely see a prolonged labor negotiation.

So do the Browns have more cap space than they expected? Do other teams who thought they were capped actually have more space? Nobody knows until the labor and TV contracts finalize.

So I suggest negotiations with a restructure with Vernon, but I also expect Vernon not to agree to a restructure until all of the unknowns shake out.

Fair enough; however, I estimated Dupree's cap number based on the 2019 tag numbers. Since we're expecting the cap to grow, that would actually enhance my original point about how affordable Vernon is for what he produced in comparison to a guy the Steelers felt was important enough to franchise tag although they're over the cap ceiling. Future cap implications seem to indicate that Vernon's deal is more team-friendly post-CBA as opposed to pre-CBA.

 

[FrontPageNews]

Go get turner now

 

[Lee]

Olivier Vernon PFF in 2019-20 - 80.4 (21st among edge rushers)
Bud Dupree PFF in 2019-20 - 77.77 (24th among edge rushers)

Bud Dupree's franchise number can be as low as $15.5 million (if tagged as a LB), or as high as $17.5 million (if tagged as a DE). Vernon has a cap hit of 15.5 million this coming season. The Steelers are over the cap currently by 2 million and the Browns are under the cap by over 58 million bucks. Vernon is 29 and Dupree is 27.

This MO of shedding salary of good players to have max cap room by the Browns makes me livid. What do the Browns know that the Steelers don't? Can I just tell you now that it's nothing?

Preaching to the quire. IMO, Vernon had an ok year, but could have been better and he was 21st. If we cut Vernon, we are doing him a favor as I bet he gets over 15.5 per in the open market. Cutting him is silly.

On the other hand, cutting Hubbard saves us 6.15 million and leaves about 1 million in dead money. Not sure what his pff grade was, but who cares, he was awful and cutting him seems like a no brainer to me.

 

[Lee]

Let's start the Vernon conversation with the fact he isn't worth that price tag by any stretch of the imagination. He is a second defensive end getting #1 defensive end money, and that's why the Browns were able to get him in a trade. His reasonable production was always 6-8 sacks, which he usually did in Miami aside from a few explosive output seasons.

So I would want to restructure Vernon's contract. We know he is better than Chad Thomas. What we don't know is how easily the Browns could convince him of a restructure. He is coming off a disappointment of a season and will turn 30. If he balks at a reasonable restructure, there will be #2 DEs in free agency who will accept a contract closer to 8-10 million a year who could actually be younger.

He was one of the top ends against the rush in the entire league. He didn't have great sack numbers, but he played well. He is getting #1 type money, but that is because he would be #1 on about half the teams in the league. He is a luxury for sure, but one we can afford and find his contract in line for position and level of skill. Maybe it was big when he got it, but its fine now.

There are numerous other players I would cut before Vernon and right now we are almost 60 million under the cap anyways.

 

[daddywags]

Vernon is fine when he plays, although not a disrupter. But he's missed 15 games in the past three years so you can pretty much count on not having him on the field 1/4 of the games. That's a problem, especially as he's not getting any younger.

 

[Vee-Rex]

Olivier Vernon PFF in 2019-20 - 80.4 (21st among edge rushers)
Bud Dupree PFF in 2019-20 - 77.77 (24th among edge rushers)

Bud Dupree's franchise number can be as low as $15.5 million (if tagged as a LB), or as high as $17.5 million (if tagged as a DE). Vernon has a cap hit of 15.5 million this coming season. The Steelers are over the cap currently by 2 million and the Browns are under the cap by over 58 million bucks. Vernon is 29 and Dupree is 27.

This MO of shedding salary of good players to have max cap room by the Browns makes me livid. What do the Browns know that the Steelers don't? Can I just tell you now that it's nothing?

I get it but I think you're premature. The Steelers also have one of, if not the best O-line in the NFL. The Browns O-line is laughable.

I'll sacrifice a Vernon if it means bringing in O-line help. I'll sacrifice a Vernon if it means bringing in someone like Anthony Harris for similar cash.

If we lose Vernon and Schobert and come out of free agency with nothing to show for it then that would be bad, but I'd wait before getting "livid" about it. I have a feeling losing those two makes us more likely to throw big bucks at improving the O-line, than if we kept Vernon and extended Schobert to 13'ish million a year.

 

[Soda]

I get it but I think you're premature. The Steelers also have one of, if not the best O-line in the NFL. The Browns O-line is laughable.

I'll sacrifice a Vernon if it means bringing in O-line help. I'll sacrifice a Vernon if it means bringing in someone like Anthony Harris for similar cash.

If we lose Vernon and Schobert and come out of free agency with nothing to show for it then that would be bad, but I'd wait before getting "livid" about it. I have a feeling losing those two makes us more likely to throw big bucks at improving the O-line, than if we kept Vernon and extended Schobert to 13'ish million a year.

Without just giving you the insider content, the tenor going around there is that guys like Anthony Harris, Chris Harris, & Jack Conklin are going to be "cost prohibitive" for the Browns. Meanwhile, the Browns guardrails say not to pay for depth. Sooo.... You don't want to sign guys who will instantly impact your starting lineup & your internal rules say not to pay for depth, yet you have nearly 60 million bucks idle in cap space.

What the eff you see kay are you going to pay for, then?

 

[Vee-Rex]

Without just giving you the insider content, the tenor going around there is that guys like Anthony Harris, Chris Harris, & Jack Conklin are going to be "cost prohibitive" for the Browns. Meanwhile, the Browns guardrails say not to pay for depth. Sooo.... You don't want to sign guys who will instantly impact your starting lineup & your internal rules say not to pay for depth, yet you have nearly 60 million bucks idle in cap space.

What the eff you see kay are you going to pay for, then?

I don't know of any insider info so perhaps my perspective is out of ignorance. So I could be wrong and if so - shame on the Browns. But I also know not to take insider word as gospel/fact, so I'm not going to let it dictate my emotions. The fact of the matter is letting Scho and Vernon go doesn't necessarily make us a worse team provided that we reinvest that money into the O-line, and perhaps D-line that could probably be more reliable in terms of health.

We'll see what happens in free agency but it really seems like we're stacking the chips for a strong push. And if it's O-line, I'm happy.

 

[Ohio]

I don't know of any insider info so perhaps my perspective is out of ignorance. So I could be wrong and if so - shame on the Browns. But I also know not to take insider word as gospel/fact, so I'm not going to let it dictate my emotions. The fact of the matter is letting Scho and Vernon go doesn't necessarily make us a worse team provided that we reinvest that money into the O-line, and perhaps D-line that could probably be more reliable in terms of health.

We'll see what happens in free agency but it really seems like we're stacking the chips for a strong push. And if it's O-line, I'm happy.

I think most of us are operating under the assumption the Browns will not be using all of their cap space this offseason.

So, if that is indeed the case, cutting Vernon only hurts the team.

 

[Randolphkeys]

He was one of the top ends against the rush in the entire league. He didn't have great sack numbers, but he played well. He is getting #1 type money, but that is because he would be #1 on about half the teams in the league. He is a luxury for sure, but one we can afford and find his contract in line for position and level of skill. Maybe it was big when he got it, but its fine now.

There are numerous other players I would cut before Vernon and right now we are almost 60 million under the cap anyways.

You aren't going to find a long line of people following the NFL closely that would say Vernon remains of of the top ends in the league this off-season, and is a no-brainer 15.5 million dollar per season player. I appreciate his play, but 10 games played and 3.5 sacks are red flags. He may want to hit the open market at age 29, but I doubt his reps will tell him he will likely get one last payday on the level the Browns will give him for the next two seasons. He is simply a good candidate for a restructure because of production and age, pure and simple.

 

[Lee]

I think most of us are operating under the assumption the Browns will not be using all of their cap space this offseason.

So, if that is indeed the case, cutting Vernon only hurts the team.

We either have a new CBA this year or next with a significant increase of % of revenue for the players and a big cap increase. There is almost no reason to not use the cap space this offseason as it will just disappear into the new CBA.