Cleveland Browns 2022 off-season thread

[CBBI]

Sorry you are correct it is only 2 wins kicking cost the team. I thought in the baltimore game browns would have had a chance to tie it if Chase hadnt missed his early FG.

Week 15 against LV. Chase misses FG at end of first half 47 yarder. Browns lose by 2.

Week 16 GB. Browns kicker misses PAT of first TD drive, Second TD drive browns forced to go for it and dont get it. 2 points that would have been easily made. Instead of browns driving to try and come back from behind on final drive they are trying to come back to win. Browns lose by 2.

If you only look at the final score and the kicks that were missed, then sure.

We've been over this already. You're ignoring the context of how those missed kicks actually impacted the game.

The Browns were trailing the Raiders by 6 points with 3:45 to go in the 4th quarter. They went for and converted a touchdown on 4th and goal from the 5 yard line. There's absolutely 0.0% chance they go for a touchdown in that scenario if Chase had made his earlier kick and they were only trailing by 3 points instead of 6 points with 3:45 to go.

They would have kicked the game-tying field goal and the Raiders would have gone down and kicked the game-winning field goal regardless. The miss didn't impact the outcome of game because the Browns were actually forced to be more aggressive than they otherwise would have been.

Packers game, same thing. You're simply ignoring the context of how the game actually went.

Let's assume Naggar makes the XP on the first drive and then also makes the XP on the second drive. Even if both of those things happen, the Browns are still only tied at 24 instead of trailing by 2 on the final possession.

Considering they never got into a position to even attempt a go-ahead field goal on the final drive before Baker was intercepted, it's completely disingenuous to suggest that one missed XP cost them the game when they never actually got into a position to win it.

 

[Hurl Bruce]

Anyone want to inquire about Calvin Ridley?

 

[DJTJ]

Anyone want to inquire about Calvin Ridley?

Not at what it’ll cost.

 

[Vee-Rex]

Anyone want to inquire about Calvin Ridley?

Perhaps, but it would be based on his condition at the moment. Went through personal and mental health issues that led to him only playing 5 games and not returning this year.

 

[buzzdog]

You yourself see statistics that show teams that are successful both committing a ton of penalties and a lack there of.

Your argument overlooks that teams, year in and year out, overcome it with little issue. The original post references that they are overrated. That’s clearly accurate given they have no direct correlation to success one way or the other.

Teams have won it all with mediocre QB play too, so I guess there's no correlation to that and winning either. The bottom line is, deficiencies have to be overcome one way or the other. Having an undisciplined team that shoots itself in the foot with penalties correlates with having to overcome the disadvantages they present themselves with. They have to be superior in other ways, the same way a team with a mediocre QB has to compensate with superior defense, etc.

You act like committing a lot of penalties has no bearing on wins or losses, and that simply isn't true. A few teams win in spite of such things, and more often they lose if they can't overcome the disadvantage by being superior in other ways.

You make no sense.

 

[2 For The Brew]

I don’t see how a coach is responsible if a player false starts or lines up / jumps offside. That’s on the player 100%. Some people are enamored with vicarious liability and apply it without reasonable limits.

 

[chrisrich91]

I don’t see how a coach is responsible if a player false starts or lines up / jumps offside. That’s on the player 100%. Some people are enamored with vicarious liability and apply it without reasonable limits.

This has always been my point of view.

Always this vague talk of “instilling discipline” like a coach has any control over an individual’s ability to focus in the moment.

Find disciplined players. Find focused players. Find smart players.

Blaming a coach because a player jumps offside or gets spooked into a false start or is caught up in the moment and lines up incorrectly etc just feels like misplaced frustration.

 

[buzzdog]

Yeah, I'm sure coaching and team culture has nothing to do with it. Teams that play focused and teams that play for each other commit the fewest penalties.

 

[Randolphkeys]

7 of the top 10 pre-snap penalized teams missed playoffs (Detroit #1, Browns #2), which shows a complete lack of discipline. I'm okay in principle with aggressive penalties but pre-snap bullshit is inexcusable, playoff or no playoff team.

I know people jump to blaming the coach for undisciplined penalties, but I got to point to the same players committing most of those penalties time and time again.

Coaching plays a part, but Malik McDowell and Ronnie Harrison being idiots is a huge problem. Jarvis Landry picking up a few illegal motions per season is a problem. Overmatched backup offensive tackles committing false starts is a problem.

They have some dumb and overmatched players.

 

[Damage]

Anyone want to inquire about Calvin Ridley?

Nope. Personally hope he gets all the support/help he needs.
Professionally, you can't rely on him showing up. As harsh as it sounds.

 

[Vee-Rex]

I don’t see how a coach is responsible if a player false starts or lines up / jumps offside. That’s on the player 100%. Some people are enamored with vicarious liability and apply it without reasonable limits.

There is some correlation between coaching and penalties - we've got years worth of data for that. It's not 100% on the player. Generally veteran/long-time coaches have the least penalized teams, whereas first year head coaches are often high on penalties. The types of penalties matter too - pre-snap penalties are probably the biggest indictment on coaching. False starts are often caused by players not knowing the snap count for that week's gameplan. Freddie Kitchens is one of the major examples (among many) of how an undisciplined, unprepared team can rack up devastating penalties on Sundays.

Now obviously, just because a team is heavily penalized doesn't mean HC is a bad coach or anything. Or vice-versa, as we saw with Eric Mangini drastically cutting down our penalties with his style of coaching (which seemed to lead to other problems, though he was nowhere near the worst coach we've had in the last 22 years).

I think 2 years of being bad in penalties for Stefanski is enough to mention it, but he more than makes up for it with his other qualities. We'd like to see it start trending in the other direction for year 3 though instead of getting worse.

 

[Damage]

There is some correlation between coaching and penalties - we've got years worth of data for that. It's not 100% on the player. Generally veteran/long-time coaches have the least penalized teams, whereas first year head coaches are often high on penalties. The types of penalties matter too - pre-snap penalties are probably the biggest indictment on coaching. False starts are often caused by players not knowing the snap count for that week's gameplan. Freddie Kitchens is one of the major examples (among many) of how an undisciplined, unprepared team can rack up devastating penalties on Sundays.

Now obviously, just because a team is heavily penalized doesn't mean HC is a bad coach or anything. Or vice-versa, as we saw with Eric Mangini drastically cutting down our penalties with his style of coaching (which seemed to lead to other problems, though he was nowhere near the worst coach we've had in the last 22 years).

I think 2 years of being bad in penalties for Stefanski is enough to mention it, but he more than makes up for it with his other qualities. We'd like to see it start trending in the other direction for year 3 though instead of getting worse.

Yup. Pre-snap penalties = confusion on playcalls and/or lack of discipline.

 

[macbdog]

Perhaps, but it would be based on his condition at the moment. Went through personal and mental health issues that led to him only playing 5 games and not returning this year.

I can't see coming into the Baker/Stefanski scuttlebutt helping these issues. Ridley saw how Stef didn't draw up plays for OBJ and how Baker couldn't get him the football, I doubt he jumps at the opp to join this. They need to draft and groom the WRs they need.

 

[CBBI]

Anyone want to inquire about Calvin Ridley?

I’m literally interested in anyone at any position who can help the Browns win for the right price.

Ridley might be too cost prohibitive, but that's up for Berry to decide.

 

[sailfish]

I’m literally interested in anyone at any position who can help the Browns win for the right price.

Ridley might be too cost prohibitive, but that's up for Berry to decide.

Yes! Malik McDowell was a great under the radar pickup. Those are the kind of acquisitions that great GM’s un-Earth. Ridley comes with risk, so i can’t imagine the Falcons will be able to get a lot for him right now.